blonde poker forum

Zoom PLO10 6max - $0.05-£0.10
UTG playing $14.91
Me OTB playing $21.71
No history

Pre flop:
Villain opens $0.35 - I raise to $1 with  Ts Aspades 6c 8s - They call

Flop:  Jh Qs 9h
Villain checks, i Bet $1.10 into $2.15 pot
Villain re-raises to $5.36 with $8.55 ( i have $19 behind)
I fold

Firstly 3 bet on the button, is this a standard type of 3b hand ? 150 bigs deep seemed about right.

Flop obviously bet, but is b/f a bit weak here or standard?

I obviously have bottom straight but only redraw to back door nut flush although as i have 3 spades less likely. K10 obviously they will have alot here or even other hands they have monster redraws and we cant ever be in good shape?

havent played much Omaha in a while so just want to get my thinking correct

Boom if easier : http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/15406893_987870CAB1

Without reads on the opponent I don't like the 3-bet. Our hand doesn't flop particularly well or work together well.

We get dominated a lot and thus in trouble.

Think I want to get to the flop as cheaply as possible & then re-assess. I'm not raising pre with this, as Cos notes, it's not much of a hand in PLO terms. Think of cards that work together, & combo draws. Put those two together, & we've got some playable ammo. 

In PLO - imo - we want to see flops before going silly.

Thoughts on c/c flop?

If we check call the flop what cards on the turn (apart from spades) are we hoping for that if we get bet into again we can call off?

Im not sure about the 3b on the button here not sure if the zoom dynamic makes this standard tbh but I think flatting in position would be better. As played I think its a sigh fold as I cant see how we are going to improve on the turn or river

FYP. Hero is IP.

@ OP: Checking back the flop should be strongly considered IMO. Betting (for value and protection/equity denial) is good vs a loose passive player who will usually check-call with his FDs and two pair/trips type hands. Versus competent/non-passive players it is often better to check this back and call most non-heart turns (and bet blank turns if checked to). The beauty of being in position is that you can check-back a hand like this, pot controlling with a non-nutted hand that has no redraws, and still get to protect your equity on the turn (when, btw, your equity against something like two pair plus a FD is way better than it was on the flop) since you can bet the turn when checked to.

As played, folding to the c/r seems essential.

3betting preflop is... errr... highly optional.

Based on this HH and the other HH you posted in your diary I would make a tentative inference that you are perhaps overplaying hands in certain spots, believing this is 'standard'.

We definitely want to be 3betting a LOT in position to maximize our ev but this hand wouldn't go into that range imo.

thanks for your thoughtw btw don't have a diary but I commented on someone's plo in the rail which u might be thinking off

I thought 3bet pre is fine in position, oops I certainly wouldn't

Thanks pleno, I wasn't really 3b for value but didn't have a feeling OR was that strong so to take some initiative, give myself more chance to win post flop. Weird hand to 3b I guess but maybe the reason i done this was more as otb suited ace and few hidden straight potential

Three betting for anything that isn't value is likely a bad idea at plo10z. Especially without a read. Read what lil Dave wrote about playability in the other PLO thread, it's very good advice imo.

Also Honeybadger advice too.

Most certainly will re-read it again thanks

Ha, sorry. I thought for some weird reason that the OP of this thread was stacksaa. He posted a hand in his Beginner PLO Advice 'diary' (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=65785.0) and this is what I was referring to. My mistake.

Just my 2 cents
 You should strongly consider flatting mainly all of your mid/strong hands in position and get working on crushing your post flop game at plo10z because its not like the higher stakes games where everyone goes ballistic to get a small spr down the streets and pressurise you in to tough spots working with very solid ranges. 9 times out of 10 I'd say if you 3b the btn here at plo100z+ from 150bb you will get 4b by utg as a non reg. And that's horrible even with hands like AJT8ds
  people rarely bluff post flop at this level in 3b pots so exploitatively flatting the button to utg raises you can mimimise higher variance and gauge a sense of how people play on certain textures, you may pick up that when people do bluff, they mostly have tendencies of overplaying their strong starting hands a little too much in single raised pots. also hands go multiway much less often at this level making decisions easier. People do call way too wide at this level, but 3bing AT86 is an over adjustment, calling more and playing more is a better idea imo. I'm not advocating calling all the time forever from now on as there are obvs going to be spots you can feel in game to 3b but you should be calling a lot, as a ton of good knowledge is there to learn by building up your post flop skill.

Standard type of 3b hands for me in this spot would be likely good double pairs and bad double pairs, some sexy mid range hands like 3578 every now and then and very very strong rundowns with nut suits AKQ/Jx very good KKxx and all AAxx

This flop is definitely not a bet for me unless you have some sort of redraw its all over villains range and their ranges equity is too strong with two cards to come! half pot is very weak to continue with on this texture, so consider checking instead of betting pot then having to be folding to a raise.

@honeybadger what do you mean by betting here for equity denial vs a loose/passive player is good

Haha yes that is me overplaying hands in certain spots something I realised last night when I went through my HH from the weekend and certainly need to work on!!

It's not a diary (yet) but who know its could go that way a micro PLO blog could be fun!!

I think that's great advice, especially the emboldened part.

For someone who is relatively new to PLO, they need to understand how different it is to NLH.

In this particular case, & many like it, let's get to the flop - that's where the play of the hand really starts. The flop IS where our hand, & play, is defined, not pre flop.

"Punting" everything pre, as a newbie, will end badly. As a small stakes player, you can turn a profit at PLO, just by doing the basics well. Profitable PLO requires lots of different skills, but none more important than starting hand ranges. Playing bad starting hands inevitably ends up putting us in difficult spots, time after time. I'm only talking "recreational" or small stakes here of course, but I believe this strongly.

The vast majority of small stakes PLO & PLO8 players have really bad understanding of starting hand ranges. And that is where our profit will arise. We don't need to fancy dan, or to think Level 5. Small Stakes players don't think Level 5, so it's pointless trying.

All imo, of course, & I'll bow (grudgingly) to the greater wisdom of the likes of Honeybadger & DegenDave.

Thanks Oxford that is a great point about flatting a strong % preflop which I will take note

As for players tendencies was playing zoom so difficult to get this after 1st go.

For the record I am not a newb at plo just hadn't played in  while. Only ever played here and there but do ok most of the time haha. Quite enjoyed zoom plo so played for a bit yesterday so getting back into the swing of it and all comments on here will help many thanks

I think the 3bet pre-flop is...sketchy...you can probably squeeze it into break-even because your hand is kind of OK and you're IP with a bit of extra room in the stacks, we have an Ace as well so probably won't get 4bet.

Thing is though, this specific hand, will play OK vs his whole range that opens, speshly IP, but this is kinda the problem with the 3bet, the equity advantage you have a tiny bit disadvantage i would think, and your advantage here comes from your position and the playability advantage you have down the streets, when you 3bet you shallow the SPR and thus reduce your post-flop advantage - if you had an equity advantage then this wouldn't be a problem as you can rarely do better than making someone put in money with a worse hand than yours at any point in a poker hand, but you don't!

Also, if you're 4bet then you must 10000% fold and that would be quite a shame given that our hand would be quite a nice one to call with OTB.

You will gain some edge here by the fact players at this stakes will call your 3bet probably 100% so he will call some hands eh shouldn't and some hands that are doing badly vs your hand but the reality is he probably isnt opening all that wide anyways and really we're just bloating the pot for no good reason.

On the flop you have a big problem... this flops slams both your ranges and he is wanting to commit 150big blinds...he has plenty of non KT stuff, but has KT plenty too, anything he has that is not KT will have plenty of outs... as Cos puts it...


I don't think we can fold it - although perhaps in these games people are not c/r some of the NON-KT stuff they should be doing which could sway into a fold. Nasty spot.

I plugged in 3 diff ranges for villain using a UTG raise of 20% and 4% 4bet (AAxx). Not sure if this is accurate for these games at this level but again, like others have said, it's a pretty big mistake to be 3betting hands like this vs ranges you not sure of.

Edit: (for those unfamiliar with pokerjuice the bar graph on the right is the % time we can stack off on the turn vs the amount of time we have to fold. The circle above is the avg equity we will have vs villains range. The bar graph on the right is all the cards we can stack off on iven the pot odds and villians range. SOEQ_NS is the equity we need on the next street to be able to stack off given the odds and SOEQ is the equity we need to stack off on this street (flop)

First get it in range (GII) is pretty loose and I'd say pretty optimistic even for 10plo. So any 2pair+,any pair+straight draw and any flush draw.

(http://i.imgur.com/LTnRgQG.png)

Second range would be a fairly solid GII range. QJ+,8T+, any Q+fd and any QT+

(http://i.imgur.com/v7qc0HB.png)

Third is a tightish GII range. Any straight, any set, QT+fd.

(http://i.imgur.com/gJuQIjk.png)

I've included cards we have odds to stack off vs the range, and as you can see we aren't folding an awful lot of turns in any scenario (after all we have the 2nd nuts).
The EV peel in the top right shows us how much money we are making, calling the flop and stacking off on these turns with the odds. Obv it's really close and can change from being EV+ to EV- with a slight range tweek.
Think the overall consensus though is it's marginal and I'd try to avoid getting into these spots when you're just starting out. BTN v CO you can go pretty wide 3betting but I'd save the top 10% maybe vs UTG depending on how loose they are.

Opinions on villains range are welcome and I'll happily do some more sims based on these assumptions. I think this is a really interesting hand from a beginners perspective and shows PLO is ridiculous complex and deep.

Edit: these turn cards we can stack off on are all assuming the villain will shove 100% of turns, which in reality isn't true as players at plo10 are going to be checking whenever their hands are not the nuts anymore in big pots.