blonde poker forum

Sorry everyone but this is going to be a little rant about some posts I've seen on Facebook recently that have annoyed me a bit. There has been a few, but two in particular, who are well known members of the poker community and are selling for the WSOP. One was selling for the main at 1.29 and justified it by saying "Pretty standard for the main", even though he's only ever cashed one event above 1k and went on to say that he wouldn't be playing if he didn't sell out. Another was selling a huge package for the same price and didn't even bother offering any justification, and I think it's safe to assume that he would also need to sell out in order to play. At least he's had a few decent scores in bigger buy in live fields, but still.

There's a lot about this that doesn't sit right with me, but what I find truly amazing about it is how they're selling on Facebook, which implies they're selling to friends. So basically, these guys are asking their mates to do them a favor and help them into playing a tournament/schedule that is way above anything they'd normally be able to play. They're then charging their friends a huge amount of juice on that favor, with no justification whatsoever. So, their friends are doing them a favor but hoping that it's going to be a +ev one for them, and presumably invest believing this to be the case, but not realizing that their investment EV is being reduced to as close to zero as the player feels he can get away with. At least if it's being sold on a poker forum it's not actively trying to squeeze money out of your friends, and the investors are more likely to be clued up about how this stuff works, although I still don't think these sorts of mark ups are justified. I mean, at least try and give some sort of reasoned argument for why you think you're worth that sort of price. Just seems super scummy to me, sets a really bad example, and it just seems like people are getting more arrogant about their ability and more greedy with their mark ups every year.

Agree but would disagree with the last sentence. 4/5 years ago 1.5-1.8 was the standard for the main!

Ouch!

Just go on the staking board and see the old posts :)

pm me names pls Matt. Might wanna buy :P

I don't think selling on Facebook implies that you are selling to friends, it is just everyone uses Facebook for everything now.

If you think the markup is too high then tell them on their thread and start a debate on their thread. They will probably get peed off but if you can't stand scrutiny on your mark up then you shouldn't sell and advertise with markup imo.

At the end of the day, if all the information is out there and there is no deception and hiding info, then market forces should dictate if they sell out.

Just don't buy, I've come to the view that I'm doing people a favour by buying so am less tolerant of mark ups in general.

Call them out for it on Facebook, obv poker forum is different.

not sure i agree tbh. if i post something on my facebook then who are you to tell me i cant? if something is priced too high then market forces will come in naturally. i have no idea who any of the people involved are in this example.

YO! I think I'm in good stead to speak since I made a similar post on Facebook (though not at 1.29). I have like 4k 'friends' and 80% of them are poker players that have added me, there's a good poker community and the people that bought off me were all poker players. It's also not just your friends you're sharing to, you're getting reshares etc. it's the most efficient way to do anything nowadays. I'd say the Facebook thing isn't too big of a deal. I think non poker players don't get past the lingo and I've never even been approached for action from a non poker player, So i wouldn't be concerned about that. I will always swap before i sell to friends, but if not i will also always buy at the same mark up i sell to them at too. potato potato (hmmm just released it's impossible to use that saying in text...)

Reg mark up. If you've played the main event you'll know it's the softest tournament in the world. sure it has all the wizards, but if you see some of the stuff i saw last year (including my bust out hand last year where someone shoved 16k into 3k, leading to a huge multiway all in with a FD), you'd agree, even good amateurs could justify a MU vs this field. I've bought at mark up, and i would expect to do so. For the most part I'd only buy if i thought It was worth it (unless i was feeling fruity). Perhaps i am doing these players a favor, but if so, helping someone out is fine by me, it's something to feel even better about when they lose my money (which is obv going to happen more often than not).

If anything I, I'm often worried about charging markup. I'm pretty humble about my "ability" and I charge mark up because people advise me to and tell me I am worth it. I usually sell at 1.2, but last year i lost a shit load converting to £ to $ so i moved it up to 1.25 this year (i did explain this in my original post). I also spoke to several respectable people before posting to make sure i wasn't taking the piss with my MU and that it seemed fair. I pretty much got laughed at and reminded of super high markups other people charge. I know 100% there were people selling at 1.6-1.9 last year because i inquired but didn't buy (granted they are top top players but still). I even know of people being freerolled in for 50%. that's way better than 1.29, which would be what, like 78:22? Even though I didn't explain why i added mark up in every super grim and boring detail, people can look at my results and/or have played with me and make their minds up themselves. I was super clear with my MU and didn't try to deceive anyone. I play very few live tournaments, but I have pretty good results in them when I have. I wanted to keep my posts as short as possible, so assumed those wanting to buy would understand how mark up works and be able to make their own minds up about whether they wanted to invest, or punt or whatever way you want to look at it.

The main point is people want a main event sweat. It's a great spot to get behind and that's fun. People also appreciate its expensive to go to Vegas and playing the main also extends my trip by 2 weeks, which comes with expenses and had i not sold enough, i would have played something else while i was there with the money I'm putting into the main. This is something you don't have to worry about when buying a piece. If anything, I'd argue the structure, rando morons and fun factor make the main event a spot for justifiably higher mark up.

I only sold to poker players, many highly respected and very accomplished players, and I almost sold out extremely quickly. It was these kinds of guys who advised me to charge mark up, and that reassures me people think it's worth it. If you have a problem with mark up, don't sell with it and don't buy with it, noone is making you do anything. People bet on sports or roulette or black jack for fun knowing they are making -ev bets so i guess people do place a value on the fun element, and i think that means mark up will remain "standard".

For me, the scummy thing isn't selling at mark up or on Facebook, so long as it's clear (even if it's unjustified in terms of skill level since noone is forced to buy), it's 'ranting' in a forum instead of maturely asking the guys personally, or dropping them a message to politely suggest they justify it on the post (for everyone's benefit). I wouldn't go into Tesco and rant about the price of melons, if i didn't think they were worth it... i wouldn't buy them.

This post doesn't even do anything constructive, it's just a pointless rant and  I'd argue that wining and ranting and spreading needless negativity is way more destructive than a group of players HAPPILY investing and getting behind an individual, having fun, and hoping to make a bit of money in the process.  

Hey Dan,

Do you often wonder into random people's houses and call them scummy?  Your post seems a lot more negative than the first one to rando morons like me. 

Must be nice to have 4000 friends, sick brag.  No wonder you almost sold out quickly and everything.

Cheers

 

Nirvana hacked doobs acct? :)

Ha! You're taking what i said out of context.... this is the kind of trolly, negativity i was referring to. Passive aggressive posts that have no substance.

 'Rando morons' referred to the total noobs you get playing the main event (And there's lots of them, people who have never played before which make the tourney good value). I wasn't directed at anyone.

You're paraphrasing my use of the term 'scummy', which was a quote from the original poster and I don't believe I called anyone in here Scummy. In fact, i don't think anyone,  OP included, used scummy as a direct insult to anyone personally.

My friends, as i explained are not all 'friends' - no brag present. I was using it to justify Facebook as a suitable resource.


My post was in no way meant to be negative. Perhaps it may be a little defensive, but I was aiming to reply to the original post in a constructive way, trying to make a contextual and intelligent argument to explain mark up (which i feel i did).

Seriously, people need to stop looking for things to attack and just smile more! I think i actually made a valid argument. I could have just written "do i have a 20% roi at the wsop? almost certainly yes. Markup justified", but instead i spent a while explaining things in depth, surely that's a way better way to respond.

I didn't see the scummy in the first post.  So apologies for that, but you can't expect your readers to know yor intention when you said it.

I used to be one of the bigger buyers on Blonde, but learned my lesson through the pocket.

I don't believe having a perceived ROI of 20% justifies a 25% mark up.  In my view, the seller should alays leave enough to give the buyer a +EV bet.  So if you are a 20% ROI player, you should probably be selling something much nearer 1.0.  Not only are your buyers taking heaps of variance from the comp each year, there is a whole bunch of risk too.  Every year there are stories of people blowing the buy in in Vegas before the main or just flat out stealing it.   I know nothing much about you, so this isn't a personal thing.  It is just a general risk we take every time we stake someone who isn't a very close friend (and even sometimes when you do).  And just because somebody else is ripping people off a bit more by charging 1.5, doesn't mean it is ok to charge 1.25.  And just because your freinds understand all this, and are all just punting, is it really the case with all these facebook posts? 

I have been to Vegas a few times now, and every year there are people in the corridor looking rough, telling tales of heroic drinking sessions, and laughing about how they have only had a couple of hours sleep.  I have paid mark up on here to witness somebody show up right at the end of late reg, and it is 1.01 he wasn't doing that because his short stack game was brilliant.  I fully accept that you get some bad players in the main, though maybe not so many as you once did.  But you also can find yourself sat next to Steve Sung, as I did on one of my two goes at the main.  If you get to day 2 or 3, you can find some much tougher tables and the genuine bad recs are mostly gone (there really is no need to call your customers morons and I mean ever).  How would you fare with Steve Sung on your left for 8 hours?  Or how are you going to react when you get late where the money is big?  And though you may well be in the top half of players when you start, where are you on day 4 on when the bigger part of the prize money is?  And how badly is your game going to be affected when you are playing for this big money.  I don't believe anyone really does play better as the prize gets bigger, but if you haven't ever played for 6 or 7 figures, it is unclear how much you will freeze or play too passively. 

I am not going to call anybody a scumbag, but most of these mark ups are on the heavy side and I don't think it is a negative thing for the poker community to mention it here. 

Good luck in the main.  Hope you give your investors a payday.

I agree. I aways send backeers a tourney receipt and I have a financial investment myself, I do want to see a positive return on it and playing drunk or on 4 hours sleep would be pretty bad. a 20% roi really isn't hard to have in a tourney like this.

Hopefully i will have the issue of worring about how big money payjumps will affect me!

Good luck if you amke it out there.

Ok, I'll apologize for my use of the word scummy in my original post, that was unnecessarily personal and this wasn't supposed to be a personal attack, just a comment on my frustration at the way the poker community is when it comes to squeezing every last penny out of every situation.

I've got a couple of things to reply to here so I'll try to break it down properly:

I want to echo what Doobs has been saying. If you believe a reasonable estimate of your roi is 20% and you're selling at 1.25 then you're taking a plus EV stake for the people buying a piece of you and making it -EV, right? A 20% roi on a 10k means you expect an average profit of 2k, and and if you're selling it 1.25 for the whole 10k then that totals 12,500, or am I doing this wrong? I tend to completely avoid tournaments so I may be wrong about how ROI works, but this is my understanding of it.

Even if you feel like you have a 30% roi in the field, or even a 40%, you're taking away over half of your investors expected average profit with this sort of mark up. These are investors who are paying for you to play an event that is the ultimate dream in poker, an event you wouldn't be able to play and a dream you wouldn't have a shot at if it wasn't for that investment, and you want to charge people well over half their average profit for giving you that opportunity and having the sweat in the ME that they wanted? And the justification is that "this is standard for the main", which really doesn't sit well with me either, as I mentioned in the opening post. Just because other people are behaving in a way that in my opinion is morally questionable, doesn't mean that you have to follow suit too. There are some very good players on this forum who sell at either no mark up or a small one, who are definitely still going to be a +ev investment at a higher mark up, but choose to sell at or close to face, presumably for this reason. I'm also not a fan of talking about your customers, the people who pay your wages, as rando morons and total noobs etc, but again that's just something I don't like about the way a lot of the pros talk that I think is massively -ev for the long term economy of the game, but that's a different conversation. Again, though, I want to echo what Doobs has said, about how even if the day 1 field is particularly soft, you could catch a bad seat draw, and the further you go into the tournament the higher the % of good players and the higher the money, which has got to make a huge difference to anyone, especially (and this isn't a dig at all at you Dan, just an observation) someone who has only ever cashed 1 event above 1k.

There are a few reasons why I didn't say anything on Facebook, but mostly it comes down to how I don't feel like it's my place. What is starting a shit storm on a staking thread about whether you're worth the mark up actually going to achieve? Especially if it's coming from someone who never backed you before. Yes, I am on the look out for some sweats, but I respect that I'm not a serial buyer and feel like I don't really have the right to go around derailing the Facebook staking threads of people I don't really know. I hope you can understand, then, why I chose to post this on a public forum to see what the general view of my opinion on this matter is, and I do think that the poker community has a responsibility to police this sort of thing. The staking market is not regulated, and if it wants to prosper (which I think everyone can agree is very good for the long term future of the game) then it's important to keep it under control.

If it was just about having a sweat in the main, and about having a bit of fun and hopefully making some money in the process, why the big mark up? And the fact that something is "standard" doesn't make it good.


As an aside, does anyone have an idea what a reasonable ROI would be in the main for someone like Pleno who's a total genius, and for someone who would be an average tournament reg?

300%, 40-100% depending what u mean by average

Pleno sold at 1.9 MU last year (according to a very reliable friend of his, though don't know Pleno personally)

I think the rano moron think has been taken wrongly. I didn't mean weak poker players. i meant literally, they random morons that you only see in the main event. there are people that have NEVER played before. IT's probably a bit harsh and wasn't meant to be supper offensive, they just are poker morons. they have zero idea what they are doing and that is good value.

Ill reiterate how much it costs to play the main event.  Flights 1k-2k, hotel 1-2k, live poker expenses are huge, and mark up is a way of minimizing this.  the player has to commit his time and $ to travelling and indeed playing, and this is something that helps with this cost (And would have to be paid by a backer if they were to play the main them self (or indeed any tourney equal to the value of their %)). YEs the guy gets a trip in vegas etc, but serious players arent going to be getting fucked up and having fun all day. the series is long and the grind is real. IT comes once a year, and serious pros go to vegas to work hard, not party 24/7 (some have 3 or 4 nights out only over the whole series).

the truth is in my (limited) experience the main event is the softest tourney i think i have ever player, and I've heard this reiterated time and time again. All of these randoms and weak players do sky rocket your ROI. There are good players yes, but they are so out numbered, and the structure and field size means bad table, you can often just wait it out in the early days.

as far as the dream, I've played it before and i can just say the Main Event is just another tournament imo. I was hyped to pay it last year, but very underwhelmed. i guess i was expecting fireworks and discoballs.

I could be wrong, but I've only cashed 1 tourney over 1k too. But I'm from the Uk and there aren't that many to play. I've done really well in £500 events and I show a really good final table conversion rate and there is only a small difference between a 500 and 1k event in the UK skill wise. Maybe who you were talking about is similar, there are not many (i can only think of a couple a year £1k+ events in the UK. The main event is no more difficult than something like the big 55 or big 109, which prob has a similar strength field and number of wizzards. This is something you will realise if you have managed, or do manage to play the it at some point. Some of the things you see are ludacris. I saw a 10x pre from utg, 3 callers, and 62o win the hand with a huge flop overbet and gutshot. I remember writing an article about him slamming it on the table in pride.

AS far as main event ROIs go. it's hard to quantify exactly, because you never really get an accurate sample size. However, (and plucking numbers out of the air here) if someone has an ROI of about 50% in online $109s (and a decent sample) you can assume they will do well in the main ($109 is a high average stake on line). Someone like Holz who is one of the best in the world and crushes super high rollers live has (and I've looked these up) a $250 average stake, Plenos on party is only $116. Holz has a 80% roi and Pleno 100 over a small sample, bearing in mind these are the elite, someone with the 50% at 109s should expect to do super well in live games as they're far easier as a general rule of thumb, and the Main is one of the softest I've played (though i didn't go deep to experience other stuff).

It guess it comes down to how they look at it as well as your research. An investor should look at it one of two ways, as a sweat and a bit of fun (like a sports bet) and they should be prepared to be making a bad investment if they don't do the research, or treat it as an ev calculation and do research on the player and only invest if they see profit.

ASide from helping with necessary expenses, if anything selling action removes some of the burden. you don't lose as much if you lose, and the pay jumps are smaller when you win, so it probably enables someone to play better, less scared.  Many amateurs that invest often cant expect to have an edge in the game, so buying at someone who is expected to make a small profit after markup is still better than playing themselves. Also, lots of players justify their expertise. one analogy i was given was, "you wouldn't expect a plumber to fix something for free". Lots of players justify markup on this alone (though i don't). Many pros have spent thousands of $ on coaching and countless hours studying, so question why should they give away their expertise for free when they worked so hard to make themselves +ev.

I think markup takes into account expenses, expertise, and time (it's kind of like working for someone else in a way i guess), and i think it's reasonable in a lot of cases, though 2.0 mark up seems ludicrous to me (and people sell at that). You also lose a couple of % in conversion fees too don't forget (you have to buy in cash)

Seriously tho, how can anyone say - I have this ROI or that ROI in any event. it's all just made up and basically anyone who sells does it cause they're potless innit

I posted a good 2p2 podcast from a while back, where Sheets went into a bit of depth on markup, etc.

If I wasn't busy knocking it in on sports I'd have a look for it :)

When I say it was good, I mean that I thought it was good...

$10k is a lot of money bud.

Love these threads.  Same garbage is spoken every year.  

Ill reiterate how much it costs to play the main event.  Flights 1k-2k, hotel 1-2k, live poker expenses are huge, and mark up is a way of minimizing this.  the player has to commit his time and $ to travelling and indeed playing, and this is something that helps with this cost

This is my fav sentence this year so far.  How about if you are not good enough to beat the ex's you just don't play the event?  Mark up isn't a way to cover your expenses.  Mark up is used as Doobs says to give both parties an equally beneficial +ev investment (not marking it up to a point you think is your edge because then the backer is simply buying variance long term and has no edge just so you cover your expenses).  Just because you have loads of overheads to incur playing an event doesn't justify you charging a mark up.  Just choose not to play the event if you can't afford the ex's involved.  It is not a poker players right to play the $10k WSOP main event.  Live poker mtt's for the VAST majority of players are totally unprofitable ventures after expenses are included.  They are not a way to make a living/be profitable investments for backers for the vast majority of poker players.

It would be like me finding a roulette wheel somewhere which takes huge bets only on single numbers at 50/1.  Minimum bet £10000 a spin.  You are only allowed to back one number per spin at 50/1.  I have a backer and say 'listen i will lay you 36/1 all of these numbers which is still a tiny edge for you but you have to stake me because i am doing all the work and incurring all the expenses of playing at this casino i need 99% of the edge for myself even though your money is putting me into this venture.'  

I was going to go for a long walk, but stuff it...

A few years ago when staking threads (discussing staking, not individual advertisements) were very popular on here, I predicted that there would be massive downward pressure on markup.  The threads are quite a good read, I re-visited them a month of so ago one quiet morning to see how things weer then.  My predictions were accurate, so whilst not wanting to trumpet my own genius there were some very obvious things that weer inevitably going to happen:

• MU would in the short term remain over-priced as the glut of buyers kept it artificially high
• The general recession, coupled with the constricting poker economy would mean that there was less easy money to punt off buying pieces ~ borne out by the graveyard staking boards now
• MU was calculated by a group of players (not backers) that all decided that they were worth 1.4 and as they sold out quickly, "must have under-priced" and marked up further the following year
• "10k is  alot of money bud."  Well yes it is, so if you are asking someone else for it, give them a fair shake.  Don't take all the value and leave them with all the variance.
• Backers don't get the 14hour days in the Rio, but they don't get the complimentary additional experience and education that comes from playing on other people's coin in large events may times over.
• So many ways that naive backers can get rolled over.  Even experienced backers can't immunise themselves from rogue actions involving 2 brasses, a Mickey Finn and an embroidered story about getting your room broken into.  The risk of that is usually equal and opposite to the 'edge' that the player contributes, added to the additional nightly costs of being there.  You are going to be there anyway, and no sensible person will claim that playing the main necessitates 14 nights extra in a hotel.  Stay earlier doing your won thing, then sell for the main, play 1D, book 3 extra nights in a hotel and a flight home on Day4 and have a very nice problem if you need to amend that
• "The room is full of Farmers". Well, yes it is, but there are also 2000 players in there that know what they are doing and will rip you a new one (as described admirably by Doobs' experience)
• I do agree with the "don't like it, don't buy attitude.  It is one that I have almost unwaveringly followed and will continue to do so.  If a player comes to me and says "I'm short, I want to play, can you take a slice at spot" - if I like them , trust them and/or think it is a reasonable spot, I'll do it.  If someone points me towards their FB post with any kind of significant MU... not a chance.

You're the one that needs a credit line to play.  If you can get mugs to back you at markup because you've got an edge you've pulled out of thin air then good for you.  But don't pretend they aren't getting stiffed.

Did you manage a short walk?

I managed it back to the sofa, I guess that counts.

I know mate and I know zero about staking..just like talking smack izzit

Have a good evening tonight - nearly decided to try and bandwagon but dinner takes me elsewhere - I know you'll be mortified :-) but have a good un

who is the reliable close friend? :D

99% sure its bullshit, pretty pretty pretty sure i didnt.

Pleno has pledged to sell himself at spot in this years main lol

1.9 a buy anyway tho :D

I don't mind saying what/where I sell etc.

Here is link with everything

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HkpsHPMVtbd0TfzsuJEGBgAjgDSRlYveHcUgqaoDHIM/edit#gid=0

Main incentive for selling for lots of people is getting $$$$ in vegas, its alot harder than it sounds to get money there. Its also really good to build good relationships with the bigger backers out there. If I let some guy have some of my action in the main event or in a WSOP package then they're more likely to help me out in the future with a bunch of other stuff. Business advice, staking into high rollers, helping when travelling etc etc

Thought u were selling at spot for the main?

I believe there is some very soft $10/20 cash action too.

Think he is if he fails a weight loss bet

I'd bet that less than 1% of the main event field have never played poker before. In fact I'd probably bet that there's maybe a handful of players who have never played before.

The 'random morons' that you refer to are poker enthusiasts, recreational players, gamblers, successful business people etc etc. They play because it's the main event, it's a buzz and they love it. Let's not refer to them in this way. The main event wouldn't be the main event without them.

Last year I'd sometimes go and sit in the poker canteen during a break or whatever and I'd usually pick a table that wasn't occupied by some obvious grinder but by someone who was clearly a recreational player and the energy and excitement they had for the occasion was greater than that of any pro, and a lot of pros are pretty fkn excited about the WSOP.

well, i probably will end up having to :D

Rexas did you rant about this on facebook too?

 :'( :'( :'(


Pads they have the option for the lighter fill colours, not just pure highlighter style colours, my eeeeyes they are bleeeding.

I would be amazed if anyone actually plays the main event as a first ever event either live/online/home games.  I would probably set the line at over/under 1.5 players playing it as their first ever exposure to poker and would expect to see people taking the under.  Without the 'random morons' all the dreamers who think they are worth 1.4 or 2.5 or 15.0 wouldn't be able to rip off their stakers by over selling themselves year after year.  Referring to people like this who then allow you to rip off other people over valuing yourself is highly disrespectful as Greek has said.

No, confined this one to Blonde. I've enjoyed the discussion tbf :)

5% at 1.25 please Rexas

Selling 20% of the Main at 1.6, PM if interested  ;whistle;

Pads I'll take 5% at 1.7 for the main pls.

Selling 20% of main at 5.0 if anyone is interested.   ;D  I will fund my own flights and accommodation out of the 'super soft' 5/10 cash games.

I know someone who played the main event as his first poker tournament.

He played a couple of hours of cash the night before as his first ever time playing.

He busted a Full Tilt red pro during level one, getting allin pre with TT v aces and flopping quads.

He had over 100k at the dinner break.

But he had played poker before albeit for 2 hours the night before.  What would you set the line at on how many people literally rock up and play the main having literally never played any form of poker before?  1.5 too high?

I would go over 1.5

Prize draw winners (think Jake Cody was on the table with a woman who won her seat from Planters Peanuts or something and had never played before , rich guys who have seen poker on tv and other randoms.

I'd be under 10 though.

Enjoy the Chelsea guard of honour there Keith for Leics on SSN?

Mutual friend we have out there in Hungary (I'll not post his surname here as feels like a dick move ) but if it's not true, maybe he was joking and I misread interpreted. You're prob worth 1.9 anyway!

Adam or Luke probably just mistaken or thinking of somebody else.

Sold out.

imo if someone is selling action in a place where you can comment on it and pass judgement on it then you are very much free to do so, as indirectly it's being advertised to you. Offering a % to someone, then when they reply saying they don't believe you warrant the markup, can you explain a little and your response being "GTFO" seems pretty OOL.
Always annoys me when people sell with a markup and zero explanation as to why they are worthy of such a markup (unless recently made such a post, where others are aware of it or VERY well recognised within the poker community). You are looking to get investment from them, if you were appearing on Dragon's Den for example you wouldn't rock up with a product with zero maths/financial studies, just allowing them to take your word on it being a profitable investment. People when selling should invite discussion about the markup and give full justification for why you believe you are worth that, even if many believe otherwise. Any time I've seen a thread blowup about justified/unjustified markup OP tends to get defensive and aggy simply because the only reason they offered a set markup is because they had seen others doing it and presumed it's the done thing or believe they are of equal ability. Too often it's a number plucked out the air based on trends.
I agree it's a buyers market and the whole don't like it don't buy it line, but if someone brings you up on it then I'd have hoped you would of at least thought through your realistic ROI. Also the whole expenses argument is ridiculous as these don't influence your ROI of the MTT, which is the only factor that determines whether it's a fair markup or not. I can't imagine anyone playing the same mtt in two consecutive weeks, 1st week selling at 1.1 because they are able to kip on a mates floor but then justifying a markup of 1.2 the week after due to your mate being out of town and having to grab a hotel room.

If someone was absolutely average against the field (selling at 1) then really they should be charging at a "markdown" discount (eg 0.8) because they effectively require a loan and the lender needs to be compensated for credit risk and charge interest.  Same argument applies at people who consider themselves to have an edge.  If random poker bloke is charging 1.3 on facebook then in reality he is charging 1.5.

Poker is the only sector where credit risk is seemingly completely ignored.

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

I don't think people were questioning his staking offers. It is a general point where lots of poker try and get every edge and offer poor deals for investors. There are obviously some good offers out there but is a lot of players selling at questionable mark ups compared to expected ROI and if you look at 2+2 some are doing it as a regular thing trying to pass on a lot of the risk to investors.

The 80/20 type deals are generally someone saying they are under it and are trying to spin up so often people will do it to help out a mate.

As others have said, if you cant stand scrutiny with regards to the mark up (even worse when the MU is not disclosed) then it probably isn't a good deal for investors.

To be honest, the biggest issue I have regarding the whole MU situation is when people charge it to cover 'travelling costs'... I see it a lot in the poker community and it's pretty disgusting.

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hard to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

Excellent post.

Yes, it is indeed a very good post.

 I do know Dan, not on a bezzies basis but he and I used to have some fun battles a while ago when I was playing more frequently and the phrase in question, and his subsequent defences of it are, to me, out of character.
The initial attack by Rexas was clearly prompted by Dan's FB posting and was personal for all who recognised him from the comments within that post.
So here's a young man with a love of the game and a growing FB and twitch following now having to find a response that is in tune with the very specific peculiarities of Blonde. Not surprising he missed the mark.

Maybe so, but I don't use Facebook, so I can't comment on that, & I know nothing of what went off.

I would definitely agree that blonde has some specific peculiarities, but I'd say referring to lesser players as morons is pretty peculiar in this day & age, too. The notion that because we are bad at some particular game or sport makes us a lesser person in any way, shape or form is just wrong.

I wish the fella no ill-will at all, & hope he does well in Vegas. I just think he should be a little more gracious to those who do not play the game as well as he evidently does. The guys he is talking about are his likely source of profit.

If someone is average against the field then their average return is <1.

Fair point - assume you mean rake.  My point still stands though.  There is no charge in poker staking for credit risk.  Maybe its hidden in the markup but I get the feeling sellers don't really consider it as a factor.

Again, couple of things:

That staking thread of mine, where I sold all of myself at 80/20, is the only time I believe I've sold on this forum at a mark up, and I made it clear that it was because I was stone broke, but wanted to take a shot at a relatively small buy in tournament with a potentially huge return. I explained this in my OP, and answered all the questions people had regarding the stake, in that thread. In my previous staking ventures on blonde, I have even offered free sweats in side events after busting the main that I sold for and have never charged a mark up, so given the clarity of that staking thread and past ventures, I don't think I'm being hypocritical here. Not that anyone said I was, but just wanted to be clear. For clarity, aside from that one thread, I have sold to a private group I used to be a member of on Facebook at a slight mark up before, but never higher than 1.1, and I'm pretty sure I've always made sure to justify why I'm charging a little extra.

With regards to this OP, it wasn't a specific attack on Dan, but to people who had seen his Facebook thread then yes, it was basically calling him out, although there are others this was aimed at too. However, I didn't know/think that he was a member of this forum (he created his account to reply on here, I believe), and my reasons for posting on here were explained in a previous post, but basically I don't feel like it's my right to derail his staking thread when I have no intention of buying, and by posting on here I get to generate a public discussion, but I don't go pissing on his parade on Facebook. If Dan feels like I've gone behind his back or whatever then I apologize, but I do hope he understands why I chose to post on here rather than on his Facebook. I'm happy to post on there and get some discussion going on there if he'd prefer. I also fully expected Dan to see this, and I certainly wasn't trying to hide it from him or anything, this is a public forum after all.

I think the reason this thread has turned a bit sour against Dan is due to the way he has conducted himself since coming on to it. I think everyone was pretty clear on the fact that the OP was partially about him (it was his first post, and he had just created the account after all), but some of the terminology such a the rando moron comment was pretty thoughtless, and for a professional putting himself in the public eye with an increasing Twitch and Facebook following this is completely unacceptable if he genuinely wants to view poker as a means of earning a living. I don't know if it's still a thing to call the "value players" in your games names, or hold that sort of arrogant superiority over them, but it really shouldn't be as it can dissuade a bunch of these people who pay your bloody wages to not want to play anymore. Think about it, if someone who doesn't play much happens across Dan's twitch and finds him laughing about how he played a pot with this guy and he's just a rando moron who's clearly never played before LOL, how do you think he's going to feel? Such a shit habit, and I actually do think I have a right to have a go about this because it actively affects the way people view me as a sort of professional myself. I don't exactly play for a living, I'm a student first and foremost and have worked on and off in that period, but when I do play it is primarily for money, and I have and continue to use that money to help pay my way through university. I have seen, especially with the recent HUD argument and from chatting to people at my local, that the idea of being a "pro" is one that isn't looked at very kindly. Especially the online pros, if you look back at some of the threads on the party poker facebook page and even on here there is definitely a bias against the professional player. Part of this is because they're the people who win, of course, but I also think part of it is down to the stereotypical behavior of the standard "pro". Making a casual slip up in your first post on a forum doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that you aren't making the occasional similar slip up in your twitch stream (which I haven't watched, so I don't know), but if you are, then that is actively affecting the way people view me and every other professional out there and affecting people's decisions as to whether to play or not.

Hello Dan

I have watched your twitch on the side, and you come off far better on that than you did here.   I don't think I have heard you refer to anyone as a moron, so it was likely just a bad one off slip of the tongue.  I think you are likely a better player than you came across here too, so could probably have explained the mark up here.

Just a bit of feedback for your future twitches, the one I watched was just the first one I found on your twitter and you were playing at the same time as Cat.  You spent much of the time discussing hands that weren't on the screen.  Maybe it was just because Cat was there and you don't normally do this.  I thought you did explain your thinking pretty well in other spots, just that quite a bit of the time I couldn't see the hand/chips etc so couldn't really get the full picture.

The twitch is here for those interested.  https://www.twitch.tv/danshreddies/v/65504988 (https://www.twitch.tv/danshreddies/v/65504988). 

Good luck in Vegas and with Twitch.

Doobs 

Why don't we take words with a pinch of salt and try to look for the actual meaning behind them? Does anybody really doubt Dan meant a bad poker player? Why are we deliberately miscontruing someone because we find his description a bit insulting. Lots of judgement from one minor choice in vocabulary.

I don't really think you should comment on what someone is selling unless it is predatory or misleading. Now both of these are somewhat subjective but 1.25 in the main doesn't really count. I don't really know dans game at all well enough to comment, despite knowing him away from the forum. I'm not sure which of the recreational players surf a poker forum to get insulted about their play, I would hazard a guess as soon as they join the forum they feel like part of the crew and the in crowd. Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no.  But using that phrase instead of recreational player makes you look like a human being instead of some emotionless boring robot their to take people's money. I play with random morons all the time. They probably think I am one too sometimes. Just like everyone is in the top 50% of drivers.

Recreational poker players should be entitled to a 'safe space' where they can lose their money without fear of being verbally abused.

Gamblers have feelings too you know.

I guess this is just a difference in experience, I started out playing in the pubs around where I lived and I definitely know people that confine their play to those pubs because what they've either read/heard has made them feel nervous and inferior. As someone who used to be a total loose cannon and still can be on occasion, I've seen what sort of damage this can do from both sides, and I won't ever stop feeling embarrassed by how I've behaved in the past.

It's bad, not necessarily because of the specific words you are using, but because of what they mean.
Calling someone a moron or similar is showing contempt. It's saying that I'm superior to you. How is that ever going to be a good thing? Even worse if it's on a public forum.

It's not about being emotionless. You can show emotions without being hostile towards someone.

We're fun players  8)

I started playing off in a pub league too. It was in a conservative club in Goole. It was full of lots of banter and insults. I can't imagine a single person there complaining at the word moron. Most people there played at the pub because poker was/is a social experience for them. The punters tended to play in a cash game at the end of the tournament and the drunkards just got larruped. I never heard too much outright abuse, but I'm sure words much harsher than moron were used to describe other players and I didn't think it affected anyone's gaming experience.  Moron is just a word for fucks sake. I didn't mean to imply Dan's choice of word is correct, I'm just amazed at the reaction some of it has caused. People have judged his character because of an incidental turn of phrase which describes what he meant to, in an accurate but derogatory way. People are actually getting insulted because Dan called new players in the WSOP main morons. These aren't real people, you don't need to get offended for them. If Dan was ranting in a live tournament or on his twitch stream then I would agree with you. But getting offended for hypothetical people because of it is ridiculous. Tikay judging someones character and intelligence on the back of a few forum posts after he is called out on a forum he is not a regular member of is pretty hostile too. I think he put an excellent point across in a patronizing manner but I imagine like Dan he was a bit annoyed at the time of writing so I won't berate him about daring to insult my friends intelligence over nothing and instead cut him so slack by actually trying to understand what he means.

 Does it surprise me that Dan used a turn of phrase he normally wouldn't after reading this topic? No. Its perfectly understandable. Just like using the term random moron to describe a completely anonymous hypothetical figure in the WSOP Main is fine in my opinion.


fuck shit ***** fuck shit *****

Are you seriously getting upset because Tikay suggested your friend might not be as intelligent as Clive Sinclair?

Adam, I just think it's different when someone who is actively promoting himself through twitch is using phrases like that, rando morons and utter noobs don't want to be told by someone pretty well known that that's what they are. In the pub it's mates calling each other names, not a professional player who may be someone they look up to. But hey, what can you do.

No lol, I dont know the guy at all how could i? I just don't think Tikay can fairly assume the other way, perhaps he can. I'm more curious as to why the phrase random morons has triggered such a response.

Because one of the points I was trying to get across in my OP is that charging high, unjustified mark up is, in my opinion, arrogant, and the referral to people playing the event you're selling for as rando morons and utter noobs is another incarnation of the same problem.

When someone says "DIAGF" to an opponent, do they really want that person to die in a grease fire?

When I say people over 65 shouldn't be allowed to vote, do I really mean that?

People say stuff to make a point, exaggerating a position or a thought to drive that point home.

And anyone who disagrees with me can fuck off and die.

Brilliant post, Tikay. Regardless of the intention of the original post I do believe that some poker players are much too quick to scorn amateur players. These people are often successful in their own fields and by no means less intelligent than you. In fact these people often have very good skill sets that mean that they now have an abundance of disposable income. These guys' enjoyment for the game, and, lucky for us, their lack of time to spend studying the game is the reason most of us are where we are.

I'm sure I have definitely been guilty of overcharging mark-up in the past and this is more due to my inexperience with staking and an overestimation of my abilities than an intention to defraud my friends.

Describing a person you don't know in anyway as arrogant because of their markup which is probably a touch below average for the tournament and almost certainly lower than what Dan could charge is worse than calling someone who exists in theory a random moron.

I'm sure I have definitely been guilty of overcharging mark-up in the past and this is more due to my inexperience with staking and an overestimation of my abilities than an intention to defraud my friends.


Even worse than doing it knowingly I think

Makes me laugh a fair bit how faux sensitive and outraged everyone is by a passing reference to morons - the only questions here are really about mark ups and staking - who cares if someone says RM's, recs, fun players, fish - I don't care.

I find loads of staking requests and threads much more offensive than this whole discussion but just cause we take offence doesn't mean we have the moral high ground - just means we're easily offended.

I find it offensive that these threads might get me some stick for selling at spot :D

Fair comment, "in my opinion comes across as arrogant" might seem more appropriate then?

I do kinda agree with your sentiment but would generally take a more placid view. Of course the term moron generates emotions for people in social situations, who likes to be called a moron right? But in this context the 'rando' is being labelled a 'poker moron'...so I don't really care too much about the terminology because it's in the context of poker. Really it's inconsequential how you're perceived at a poker table, all that matters is you know how you're perceived. It's probably even more important to be self-aware and know your ability. However that info is expressed to you...who cares? There is a certain darkness about being all friendly and nice as pie to the poker fish too I think.

Tbh whenever I read these threads about nervous and sensitive new poker player it hacks me right off. People need to grow up and get real if they want to play poker and enjoy it. They're playing the game to win some pots and throw out a few bluffs...not to play pat-a-cake with the grinning friendly pro sitting next door. I daresay Sir Clive Sinclair may not be bothered about blowing a few grand but the rest of us need to shape up and be reactive about being really bad at something. Looking back at when I started playing....winning pots off better players and bluffing the loudmouth was the sweetest thing. That is poker and the enjoyment of the game. Social is a bonus but in reality I wouldn't count on it these days. Loads of intelligent new poker players are not remotely bothered by these opinions because they know the arena they are in, it's a turn on for lots of intelligent people.

Anyway my main point is this notion that the randos are the pros profit. Doesn't work for me in a one comp deal. Can't tell you how many times I've been busted by rando morons Tikay. I haven't got a clue how they think, impossible to play against and lucky as hell. People need to remember everybody has equity in one comp and thinking an 'edge' can be realised in any given comp, especially one over several days, is generally delusional, leading to a sense of entitlement.

My chief concern is the upcoming Vegas trip and whether you're going to donate chips to the rando morons because you feel sorry for them? It will get them interested in poker and help them enjoy the game kinda attitude? Ripping new a-holes applies to randos as well you know! But if you want to do it with a smile on your face then ok.

1.25 in the main, is probably a good deal for backers here for the little I've played with the guy in the Main. This isn't the SCOOP hi roller, its THE best value comp of the year and from what I've seen of Dan i'd assume this is a reasonable investment.

OP out of curiosity have you played the ME? or played with said player? Its a bit brave calling someone out if neither are true.

No, I'm not specifically calling him out on the mark up itself, the comment of "this is standard for the main" as a justification for the mark up was the main sticking point, followed by the general high pricing people place upon themselves. Dan may well be "worth" 1.25 in the main, but the question is is it fair to take that much EV away from the people who are investing in you?

Nearly wrote about this too - it's like one of the worst aspects of poker when it's contrived.

I find people who post like you to be a complete c*nt.  I'm not referring to you in particular and just people who post like this in theory so this makes it okay.  I'm sure you won't take offence.

Do you ever sell anything when you go to Vegas Marky ?

What would you prefer? All the pros sat around with hoodies and headphones, occasionally commenting on how shit you're playing compared to them? Tbh I found that the more I made an effort to be nice, the more I found that actually it was quite good fun and everyone, myself included, had a much better time. Yes, there is a certain darkness to it, but at the same time, what are the "poker fish" coming to the casino for? They're coming hoping to win, I imagine, but not necessarily expecting to, the primary reason is to enjoy themselves. On the other hand, the "pro" is going there to make money, and by being nice to the "poker fish" the "pro" contributes to them enjoying themselves, even though the "fish" loses money to them. Feels like both people get what they want, no?

His backside, so he can pay for the flight home.

I know what nirvana means by the cringe attempts by some highly skilled but socially clueless poker nerds to attempt to keep he fish happy.  I have seen some unreal attempts in my time.  Best way to integrate the fish is get pissed with them if they are drinking as usually the other pros at the table if they don't know you assume you are a fish as well whilst the real fish just think you are one of them.  Worked a treat at alea for me the other weekend in Nottingham.  I tilt stacked the local reg nit who paid me off because I was pissed and all the Saturday night casuals just didn't want to play hands against the local nit reg and proceeded to stack off to me.

 Three hours later after I called him a bum hunter for moving seats to get position on me after I stacked him he squared up to me and offered me outside totally sober all ten stone of him!!

Obv, it's very personal but my enjoyment of an evening of poker is independent of what others are doing in general terms. My preference, of course, would be to sit with people who naturally straddle being a decent pro and decent company - I can think of quite a lot of these.

But, any old pro or grinder being 'nice' to me doesn't really help my enjoyment   They want my money and i'm as happy giving it some sullen cunty bollox as much as someone whose smile doesn't quite reach their eyes.

I kinda take yr ticket though and I'm sure it's important for quite a lot of recs when they go out to play- I'm lucky cause I'm probably, wealthier, better looking, more intelligent, funnier and more socially adequate than them already so I don't need their 'nice' to make me feel OK - I would just feel slightly patronised by it.

Haha, what an image that conjures up

That first line is exactly how I was thinking - fine line between being just social/welcoming and cringey I guess

Yeah, I have done for the $1k comps I've played the last couple times that I've been. One year I actually sold at spot, and refunded at 1.2, which was probably the best result they could have hoped for.

Think it was on here actually, but can't remember for sure. Means I can have a few goes at some bigger comps, and not impact the vodka kitty too much.

@ Vin - Thankfully never had to brass myself off, as I doubt even Vegas has much market for bald cripples, lol.

Who was that?

Feel free to PM me the dirt if you don't feel like posting it.

Did you get a nice cash?

Maybe he thought you were being homophobic?

No idea who the young kid was.  He looked about 18 and weighed about 10 stone. Looked like he would have a paper round to do in the morning when he got home. To say i was shocked when he squared up to me at 6am stone cold sober when he had barely said a word all night was one of the funniest live poker moments ever.  

Urghhh I really feel like i need to clarity something. I in no way meant to offend anyone or make out that the whole poker community were morons. I don't think or believe this. My use of 'rando morons' was directed at nobody personally but clueless peole that don't think about what they are doing and just click buttons. This only in referred to the main event and the complete newbees that you wouldn't get in any other 10k tourney and i meant it in a way of poining out 'dead money' and value, rather than offending people. just as i would say "morons on the roads make driving dangerous" (and not expect people to take offence at that). I meant it as poker morons, i wasn't calling anyone a poker moron specifically.

"Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron."  I couldn't agree more with this... and in no way meant to berate the poker world.

Anyone that knows me will know that i wouldn't have meant offence by this at all. A key theme of many of my articles is helping the poker eco system and protecting recreational players, I wouldn't not attack them personally or as a whole nor do i disregard them at all.

Nonetheless, the interpretation of what i wrote doesn't mirror my views and i should have selected my words more carefully. I whole heatedly apologies for this. I'm really not an arrogant person, anyone who knows me or has watched me on Twitch or anything else will hopefully know this.

I have massive respect for the entire poker community, at all levels, and I'd actually argue that the speed the game is evolving is evidence that  there are few 'morons' in the game. I simply didn't consdier my wrods correctly, nor did I  assume (nor do i believe) that every non recreational player would consider them part of the "rando moron" classification (again hate this choice of wording). What I meant was that there are a few clueless players, that probably have no chance of winning, and this add value to the main event.

recreational player, amateur, inexperienced player or any other player that has some idea what they are doing do not equal what i was trying to describe as a "poker moron".

again sorry for anyne who took offence. Please accept my apologies.... I'm not an arrogant tosser... honest!

reg the expenses thing. I initially only included it because i didn't want to seem arrogant and had seen it elsewhere. it felt like fair justification for me, and that's something i do consider when ii buy action.... but I can see some valid points of its irrelevance. I initially I didn't want to seem like a cocky twat by saying "oh i think i have a 50% roi at the main so I'm selling at 1.25" and as it's somethign I considered when i bought action at mark up in the past form people, I just assumed people would think along the same lines as me.

Again, sorry if I've ruffled a few feathers, my initial intentions where to add a constructive post of how i justified both buying and selling at mark up in my own head.


Dan

**** :) :) :)

Anyhow - where do I buy at spot? :)

DING DING DING!!!

I used to try change things, then i realised the game as we know it is long gone, Dan's not done anything wrong just could have thought a second longer before typing, meh no-ones gotten hurt.

I realised a couple of years ago that actually the main event is a pretty terrible event to buy %'s in th open market, for a few reasons;
.
1. It's a pretty soft $10,000 event, and the top prize is in excess of $8,000,000 - the top 20% of the field wouldn't sell for love nor money.
    1a. So most people who sell for the event are either
          i) Under it financially and a little desperate
          ii) just spent 6 weeks in Vegas doing their brains and tilting, I personally can vouch for how that will damage your mindset for a 9 day extremely deep structured tournament.
          iii) Highly under-rolled for $10k's and inexperienced in tournaments like this, and playing for these stakes.

2. People wildly misjudge how soft the field is, people seem to think it's a tournament where you get sat down on a table with 3 texas oil barons, 3 farmers from Utah and a hedgefund guy who'll be trading stocks and shares on his ipad and then donk off his $10k and go to bacarrat. This is simply not true, not true at all.

The value in this tournament comes from;
          i) Running sick with table draws
          ii) The depth of the structure
          iii) Field has so many players uncomfortable at this level and this type of comp - and a lot of pro's included in this.

3. you get charged through the roof for it. 40-100% extra usually.

The ametuer players in this comp usually are just in for the main event, as a treat for themselves or qualified - they are fresh, not hungover and playing absolute A-Game, with no wrecklessness at all, yes a few players who have a close to 0 chance of cashing the event, but the vast majority of the ameteur field really do have it in them to make a deep run, and when you get deep thats where the top players advantages come in, as the stakes gets super high, pressure builds and intense focus is needed... unfortunately most of the guys selling at 1.4 on FB/2+2 have no way to prove their going to be any good here either, and you can look at the last 100 left in the last 3 main events, usually pretty tough field. Throw into this the fact that most of the guys selling for this event at 1.5 are doing so after a 5 week stint in LV - and anyone who's done a 5 week stint in LV knows how hard that can fuck with your head.

Basically buying in the main event is a;

S   -
U  P
P  U
E  N
R  T
=
A massive high variance gamble that you get charged heavily for, you have no idea whats really +EV, whats 0EV, whats a great bet or a terribble bet. It's just that if you hit it hard you get the lot.

***IMPORTANT TO NOTE***

I'm talking about open market place selling.

It's like betting sports, if you're betting Ronnie O'Sullivan in the snooker because you know he's good at snooker, you're likely not getting the best of it...

if you're betting Ronnie because a friend told you his best mate knows Ronnie's next door neighbour and he said they guy's been playing incredible and practising every day, then you're well within your rights to have a punt at it

If you're betting because your best mate is a Pro snooker player and has been practising with Ronnie and told you he's in a great place and playing sick, well now you can get weighed in and be loving it.

Pretty much everyone though buys on fairly irellevant data and reputations.

Super post young David.

I will say the year I went deep in the main event (barg obv) I had a ridiculously easy Day 1 table, with players there exactly as you describe don't exist.

In fact apart from a couple of hours will David Benefield on my left during day 3, I didn't have another decent player with position on methe whole time I was in. And on Day 5 I got moved to a table where there were 5 or 6 super soft spots.

However, the last 3 or 4 times I played the main, I was on super tough tables throughout. And I believe the "easiest event of the year" claim is an absolute myth.

To such an extent that I doubt I'll ever play the main event again.

Don't be sorry son - you helped spark a new thread about poker that's more than 2 pages long. The last time we had one of those was about 2011.

I've played it 4 times and never had what I would class as an easy table.

I've had softer EPT tables then any of my WSOP mains.

Hopefully this year I get the seat next to the guy who found a golden ticket in a wonka bar.

I had a guy sat next to my that lifted his cards up from the table to look at them.

I saw his hole cards well over 50% of the time.

At what point should I have stopped telling him "I can see your cards"?

3 warnings and ask the dealer to clarify he understands you.

No problem Dung. I probably won't stop posting though. If you can't see the difference between that and the point i was trying to put across I must not have been clear.

Like I see what Dan has said as "Future posters will be *****" and I think it isn't as bad because it isn't aimed at anyone. It doesn't have a specific target.

Reading my post back it might come across too aggro. Was trying to make a joke to make a point but reading it back may come over completely the wrong way.  Hope it is read in the way intended! 

Good post Dan, appreciated, & I genuinely hope you have a good run in Vegas.

I'll be there most of the Series, usually in or around the Media Centre, let's try & bump into each other. Mine's a latte, two sugar please, with a sticky bun on the side. 

Welcome to Blonde Dan.  Hope you stick around. 

Cheers

Very good, here was my take 4 years ago, dug up from another thread ~ also well worth a trawl through for those interested in staking and newer in to the scene.

I'm sure some mathematician could work out an equation that could be universally used to equate how to mark something up but then again I'm sure people would disagree with that as well.

Anyway I really posted to say regardless of who thinks what this has been a great read from all sides.

Welcome to Blonde Dan, hope you stick around.

If you've got a bit of time, these Sheets segments are pretty interesting.

http://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/listen_and_browse.php?episode=271

Sheets @ 2hr 14m (m/u starts at 2hr 28m)


http://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/listen_and_browse.php?episode=277

Sheets @ 1hr 20m

Would it give results to 3 decimal places?

10, let's make it accurate  ;D

Now that we seem to be back on a more even keel, I wanted to pick up on something Rexus mentioned.

He wrote this......


".....I have seen, especially with the recent HUD argument and from chatting to people at my local, that the idea of being a "pro" is one that isn't looked at very kindly...."

I actually disagree with that quite strongly, though the mention of the various HUD debates muddies the water.

As to not looking at poker pros "kindly", I think that's incorrect. There are several poker pros on blonde, & they don't seem unpopular to me. Amongst them are two very successful Pros who both keep a Diary, Alex & Patrick.  I'd say the readers here take very kindly to both of them, & why would they not?

An analogy would be in football. Aside from Club rivalries, all football fans would love the chance to rub shoulders with, or chat to, big-name pro footballers. Alex & Patrick would be the equivalent of, say, Sanchez & Vardy or whoever.

Next Door, where we don't have too many big boys, whenever a player there happens to land on a table with a name, or pro, they write about it as a big deal, as an event, something they love to do. 

"I shared a table with Jake Cody yesterday" sort of thing. And how weird is that - they shared a table with a player who is gonna take their pants down 9 times out of 10, & yet they love the experience. They do.

So I disagree, but you hit the nail on the head when you mention HUD's. Righty or wrongly, the perception from fun players is that HUD's & third party software gives the Pros an unfair advantage. It does not matter if that may be untrue - it's the perception that needs to be addressed. Any discussion on those topics tends to get hot & angry, no idea why, but they do. And this is where, imo, some of the Pros need to work on their PR skills. Instead of ranting about how wrong the fun guys are, take a more reasoned, softer line, & try to help the amateurs.  When Alex & Patrick dispense poker advice, (or Grafton, Cody, Brammer or whoever), we all listen, don't we? Of course we do. And poker is quite unusual in this respect, we can rub shoulders with the Pros & Big Boys.

The pros earn their living, or much of it, from the amateurs, they are their pay packet. So a little cooey-wooey would go a long way, no matter how "dark & sinister" some may think that is.

Anyway, I just wanted to correct the view that us amateurs don't take kindly to Pros. I believe the opposite is true. 

I saw a guy get a bad beat from Mike sexton at the weekend. It knocked him out the comp. he rushed over to tell his girlfriend, who was sitting near by all about it with a level of excitement similar to someone who had just won the comp.

I agree with tikay.

I would imagine most players are generally apathetic to "pros" with good times/ gambling being their main thing.

Tikay, I completely agree with you when it comes to the big name pros. However, what about me? No-one is going to be all excited that I bust them from a tournament, or won a big pot off them or whatever. And I know I've screwed up with my behaviour to affect people's enjoyment of their experience. It's ok (even though it's not) for Hellmuth to go crazy and berate people, because that's what he does, and it's Phil Helmuth! But if I go and do that, it's not acceptable at all, because I don't have the name and the experience factor etc to make it ok. If I do that, I just make someone feel shitty, and that's not good for anyone.

There are some comments here from Andrew Barber, who won a bracelet last year (I think it was HORSE) has gone back to college to study economics.  He plays a bit of plo8 too.

They aren't aimed at anyone, and are general points for this thread. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/171N5Fpnv6eFljWMQ4Y8VT3oGTu5ROa3NbVchtGm7Koc/mobilebasic?pli=1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/171N5Fpnv6eFljWMQ4Y8VT3oGTu5ROa3NbVchtGm7Koc/mobilebasic?pli=1)

I have discussed similar thoughts in the past in relation to re-entries where people sell at a premium.  If you get short stacked in a re-entry and have sold at a healthy premium the +EV decision for you can be to just toss your stack away and re-enter.  This is only very rarely going to be in the interests of buyers.   It is this disconnect between the financial interests of buyers and sellers that has stopped me buying stakes in people who charge premiums on re-entries.  It previously hadn't occured to me that the same logic follows into people who sell a series of events at a premium.  This effect is going to be exagerrated if you are short stacking a 1k that you sold at 1.2 when there is a 3k tomorrow that you also sold at 1.2.   

I enjoyed these posts greatly.

so David what you're saying is you love buying pieces in the main amirite :D

yep im all over it.

Give a guy $1000, he gives you $750,000 what could possibly go wrong

you know what on Tikay's point, although I am firmly in the camp of recreational gambler these days I do remember from my time as a pro that i got a lot of kudos from amateur players about it.

It was kind of like i had all the answers to a secret world that they were really fascinated by by were only involved in on the peripheral, who was winning what, who had what % of who, who lost how much in what game, whats X player like in real life etc.

I just made most of the answers up anyways :P

Cooey - farkin - wooey - therein lies the issue for me in terms of sinister - it's just such an annoying term and pretty dark too.

Isn't the point to just be authentic and hopefully nice with it. So people like Alex, Thew, Dempsey, Deadman all just come across as decent guys, have a certain charisma even when they are not chatting too much etc(look at the company yr keeping Alex :-) but you do serve as a useful point of reference for people here of course).

It's easy to understand that people would enjoy being around them, live life vicariously for a bit, and tolerate losing their money to them quite well - whether it's contrived or not I don't know and don't care because it doesn't seem to be. You, Teeks, for the most part carry this off pretty nicely in the live arena too.

But I don't need people to patronise me with their cooey or their wooey when what they want, what they really really want, is my cashy washy.

I may have missed the point here, but I had you down as a Pro poker player. Did I get that wrong?

I have seen you play, & you are certainly extremely competent. You've got the headphones, & even sup red wine at the table, though my tip would be to use a glass, drinking from a bottle of wine is unspeakably common, & more of a St Neots thing.

Yah, that's me - couldn't help a lol

Seriously tho, if I was that guy's girlfriend, enjoying a few cocktails at the bar, and my man came bowling over all excited about losing his chips I would find that very unsexy. Maybe even a little embarrassing. Would prob smooth down my dress and go and talk to the high roller at the craps table.

Oh and lol at cashy washy

sick bluff.  we know nothing has changed David <3

Kid's got some game...

http://www.worldpokertour.com/live_update/ocallaghan-busts-slater-gets-chip-lead-in-next-hand-national-events-partypoker-wpt-national-uk-season-2016-2017-2-100030006000/

oioi, good luck Mr Shreddies.

screwed it. came 10th :(

lost 5/6 all ins in day 3, was alive from stealing and eventually that's what got me. reshoved 20bbs with 66 and ran into kings....couldn't hold :p

Comes on here and busts rando morons

Confirmed moron

most people sell at what they need to, to be able to afford to go, not what they probably believe is fair value.

I joined blonde like 8 year ago and posted like once. I was so pissed off by the news of this thread i requested my log in info and here i am. My dad loves poker bless him but hes as much use as a cock flavoured lolli pop. Hes not charging 1.25 in the main. He didnt play the main cos hes still trying to fkn work his sky box once again bless him. Dan is a very accomolished poker player who spent a good chunk of his life studying all sorts of tactics and strategy. Id back ronaldo in a penalty shootout versus my dad. Because hes better! 1.25 is a joke for dan and to have some mong kick off because he cant beat .25 50 cent and kicks off how aces were cracked on 678 all hearts mate jog on. Dont wanna buy dont buy you absolute lemon. Get a life . ✌️

What have I become on this forum :p getting big timed in the PHA and now I'm a moaning mong.

As I think has been said, this thread wasn't just aimed at Dan, although his post on Facebook was one of the ones that particularly bothered me this time around. There have been all sorts of questions discussed here surrounding whether mark up as reasonable, and if so at what point does it become unreasonable? I'm sorry to have upset you, if indeed that is the case.

Dunno if you upset him as it was quite hard to decode.  Ronaldo and a cock flavoured lollipop were the key takeaways.

Played with Dan on day 3 of the main and would buy at 1.3 next year.

Reckon you need to have played the main to get an idea of its value.

Bubbled me you mean? *****. :p :p :p

h. jk jk. Nice run man. wp :D

i do still think my mark up was super reasonable. compare it to an American, many of these sell at 1.3-1.4, a lot of the regs have fallen behind everyone else in terms of ability (RIp online poker, and they have to pay tax. so at 1.4, you paying $140  for 70% )tax is 30 i believe) - that's like 2.0... i still feel the 1.25 i charged felt more than fair. even if i did bubble :p

You might have some good points you might not, but I automatically feel like you don't know what you're talking about when you spout off like a 9yr old when someone had a go at his fwend.

I know more than most people about buying action in LV, and being "accomplished" and "spent a chunk of life studying" is about 20% of the considerations.

*not saying Dan is good or bad value at 1.xx, just saying above post is misguided in the manor of its defence, but I do respect the intentions.

Please... It's moron, not mong. ---- Jkjk

Completely wrong regarding tax.

As for the main, I feel nearly everyone under estimates a good players edge in this event, although people also over estimate how many good players there are.

There are plenty of people who win in £1k's in the UK that I wouldn't touch at 1.25 in the main and then there are plenty of people I would happily pay 2.0 for.

Meanwhile I'm 0/7 in the ME, super soft, send more money.

a lot of players are drawing dead to win the tournament which makes up the bulk of one's roi