blonde poker forum

1/2 live NL £500 effective or so.

We raise £10 Utg with  Ac Kd, tight passive player calls in HJ.

 Qc Tc 5d Cbet 15 he calls

 Qc Tc 5d 7d Check Check

 Qc Tc 5d 7d 6c  We bet £50, he now snap raises to 175. We???

bet turn and lots of rivers

Gotta agree with pleno, although once we've checked turn I wouldn't bother with betting the river, remember this is live cash and you've kept the pot small and you're telling an unconvincing story so you've given the other guy a bunch of excuses to make a call. Definitely fold now, trying to make people fold flushes is a bad plan, even more so given that you described him as tight passive. When that sort of player comes in raising you should be doing a lot of folding.

Sorry didnt state not jamming here, I assumed that was going to be pretty obvious, was just thinking whether to call or fold this river.

He is very passive and now cOmes out all guns blazing, fold Very quickly!

Passive to aggressive having taken a free card on the turn. Answered your own question.

you've written the hand wrong.

jamming would work better than call....

 

Exactly what I thought.  I'd never call, but would think about jamming for a few seconds before folding sheepishly.

So what hands do you think this guy has for value? And being passive doesnt mean they don't bluff, it generally just means they bluff less, which makes this spot kind of close, but im not sure if its close.

Passive usually does mean they do a lot of calling and not much betting, maybe we've got a different way of classing it, but someone I would consider passive post flop would be very unlikely to put more than £50 in the middle as a bluff ever.

Moreover, we can't actually beat anything. We can't even beat some of the hands he could bluff with, which is a total disaster for us. Would much prefer jamming to calling for that reason, but as I said as played I wouldn't bet the river in the first place and if I did I would be folding very quickly.

A passive villain can still have a bunch of flushes, he could have made a straight with 89, might even have worse than that and have decided you can't have a flush so he can go for value.

Also if you flat out know someone doesn't bluff very much you should not be calling them with bluff catchers unless you have an absolutely amazing reason to do so, because you won't be getting the odds on making the call. If you never get bluffed it's definitely a bad thing, because it will mean you're basically just a station.

I'm sure you'd call a player like phil laak passive too. It's not like he wont ever bluff.

We have Ac nut blocker so this cuts down alot of a nits value combos. Nits wont raise a 9high flush on this river vs a psb. So it leaves him with Kxcc/Jxcc which there are only Kjcc/K9cc(maybe if he peels pre) and J9cc/j8cc(maybe again) all combos which may raise flop or bet turn when checked to.

Hands we beat? We almost have the perfect bluff catcher in this spot, we have Ac, dont have to worry about pairs, since people dont snap raise a pair otr as a bluff, they atleast think about calling first. We beat J9hh j9ss j9dd, KJ maybe all combos, AJ all combos. Which is way more than his value range.

Honestly, if you're giving him all these combos as bluffs, he isn't passive, and I don't think I'd call Phil Laak particularly passive but don't really follow the pros that much so don't really know. The Ac blocks the most obvious bluff for villain as well as a chunk of the bluffing hands villain can have that you listed, and why can't he raise a 5 on the river? He made a pair on the flop, so called, and when he gets to the river he doesn't think you've got a flush so he goes ahead and raises. You've basically listed all the hands he can have by the river that don't have showdown value, and 5x doesn't have any showdown value really, so why not this?

I would also say that if you think villain is going to bet all of his hands that missed as a bluff here, which it seems you do think, that check call river is way way better than bet call, because you make it cheaper for him to bluff and give him more of an incentive by doing the weak thing and checking two streets to him.

Ofcourse i dont give him all the combos. But even 1 combo of bluffs with the given pot odds should probably warrant a call here. His hand doesnt make sense for a value hand. hes a nit, what 5x does he have pre? The 3 combos of A5s?

probably 5 cards of the puppy feet.

What pot odds do you have?

Actual lol

Any highstakes players want to give their input instead?

Be reasonable. We get it you called and won well done.

lololo

you're playing 1/2 buddy

125 to win 277 so getting 2.2:1. Give him KJcc, J9cc, 89cc for value and not much else (3combos), have to give a nonzero quantity of random pairs he's bluffing with that beat us when we call, and the odd J8cc 97cc 78cc (again has to be nonzero) so probably total of between 5 and 7 combos we lose to.

So need to find around 2-3bluff combos which seems pretty easy to find even if you're being very stingy with his bluffing frequency. AJ, KJ, J9 all feasible.

Interesting spot and obv nh good call ;)

Edit: probs underestimating the number of times we call and he's bluffing with better, but with 28 combos of the AJ, KJ, J9s, even if he's only bluffing these hands 20% of the time, it's gonna be a call.

So people who play 100ks dont play 1ks no?

Think I just got big timed :p

Nice hand, good call.

And for those who think this is a show off hand. I Actually tank folded. But thinking back to it, it seems like folding is a mistake, just dont know tho ev of how big of a mistake it is

Pretty impossible to give an accurate answer to the OP. If someone described a villain in a 1/2 live cash game as tight-passive (relative to the 1/2 live population - which is often somewhat passive, particularly when it comes to bluff-raising rivers), i'd probably assume they would just have 0 bluff combos a lot of the time. If villain in this hand is capable of raising here as a bluff then it's an interesting spot, but vs a lot of live 1/2 players you're up against a flush and only a flush.

But it is really hard to see what flush he can have tom?

KJ/K9/78/89/45


it's pretty far fetched to assume that someone raising the river with air cant also raise with 5 of 1 suit. maybe none of us play high enough to get this strat.

I think it's unrealistic to give villain an incredibly nitty range to raise otr. OP perceived range is pretty hard to understand.
 What do you open utg lead flop and check turn then pot river with for value vs perceived villain when HU v HJ

I'd fold ainec

Well yeah sure he probs only has KJcc, J9cc, 98cc, 87cc, maybe 97cc/54cc for value. If you've decided he's genuinely a tight-passive player and probably doesn't have any bluffs then you don't need to consider calling. If you think he can be bluffing and doesn't exclusively have the hands i mentioned, it's quite a close spot yeah. (I would say there aren't a lot of players I think would bluff-raise this river spot much... and as Pleno said I think betting turn and a lot of rivers is preferable)

Not sure you play high enough to have an opinion bud ;)

Honestly, has the definition of tight passive changed? Someone I would class as tight passive in a live 1/2 just isn't doing this as a bluff, despite the fact that our line makes very little sense.

Preflop hands are very selective, dont call many bets with marginal holdings post flop. Tight people don't not bluff. You are probably a nit too, but im sure you bluff lol

And why would our line need to make any sense in a 1/2 nl live game?

I am getting wrecked here lol, I apologize for giving my thoughts.

I would recommend that you don't post hands looking for advice when you've already made up your mind on the answer in future though.

Was actually looking for someone who is qualified to answer my post instead of getting ridiculed in a patronising way. Don't worry I wont be posting in the future, atleast not about my own hands.

How have I ridiculed/patronized you? It's hard to say this without being arrogant, but I'd say I'm pretty qualified to talk about hands in live 1/2.

And if you guys think nitty players at 1/2 will raise a PSB with a 9high flush on the river especially to that size, then you probably arent.

hi aaron2







Says the guy saying they'll have a high bluff frequency with all their misses.




Stay classy.

Love the fact he has even big timed pleno.  Consider playing higher before you respond to PHA next time Pads.

What was your reasoning behind betting the river? As your line looks nothing like a rivered flush

I didnt make any direct or indirect comment to pads actually, as my question in matter was about the river spot.

My line also doesnt need to make sense vs someone who doesn't understand lines or ranges. If some random 5bs you and you have AA you dont 6b because you dont do this with any hand normally?

Great thread dewi.

I'm not sure why I'm still bothering with this, but for you to be considering calling with A high here you surely have to give credit to the villain for understanding that your line doesn't make sense? You're saying that he understands ranges well enough to give him credit for not raising a 9 high flush vs your sizing, but isn't capable of thinking "hold on, this guy didn't bet the turn, so it's hard for him to have a flush"? Just seems a little contradictory to me.

I've never played deep enough for a 5b/6b pot preflop, maybe one of the higher stakes guys can comment on that. Plus taking conventional/unconventional lines preflop is different to post flop

I should always bet turn with a flushdraw you say

And theres a thing they say "he doesnt call me with worse so no point raising"

But this is based on range, right? For him to say "you aren't calling with worse" he has to have some idea of your range, else he'd just think "I have a flush, I raise".


I didn't say that, but I think it is expected that you would bet turn with a flush draw. Tbh, I imagine I would actually bet turn with all of my flush draws in this instance, but that's not really what we're discussing here.

Maybe im just bad, you guys are welcome to play me anytime.

I didn't say that either, just trying to offer my opinion.

It'll be a very good proposition for you if my lines dont make sense, wanting to call Ahigh, not barreling with correct ranges. Printttt

I'm not sure why you're getting so offended here, pretty sure I'm the one that's taken most of the stick in this thread :p

When you post a PHA, you should expect people to have different opinions. There are good, winning players on this forum that are happy to comment and explain their thought processes. I mean, what do you gain from posting if everyone just says you're right and leaves it there?

DISCLAIMER - I am not saying I am a good winning player :p

I have no qualifications to comment here, play zero cash these days, although I used to, in this sort of game.
Without having sat with villain for a while it's hard to know quite what he thinks you have in your range. From your comments he's more interested in what he has and probably has the classic view of your hand. "I put you on Ace King mate"

Does he have a significant river bluffing range? Only you can know. We don't.
Should he have a significant bluffing range? Yes, especially since you have given him a cheap look at the river.
Seems doubtful that you are winning if you call, he has plenty of queens and jacks when he doesn't have the flush.
The remaining question is, will he fold to a jam? Again, we can't know that. Some players will, some definitely won't. As a former member here used to point out regularly, "you can't bluff idiots".

but we don't play high enough    rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

fwiw, op is very good reg. prob coming across bad here, river is somewhat interesting though. these things all about in game perceived ranges etc. like how close is he to finishing his session, how much is he up? how has his last 5 sessions gone etc etc, his frequencies will be based on  things we have no idea about.

thats why live poker hhs are 99% impossible to answer.


"it depends"

You could apply the same questions to an online hand, these things aren't live exclusive.

given you checked the turn you can't really jam repping the nut flush, you can really only have a7cc. i think check call flop is better but if you're going to bet the flop then bet the turn

in what world would he not raise a 9 high flush here  OTR? I think if you're against the right kinda opponent then its a cool river to raise for value with 89 too.

Not sure if it's still relevant but I would deffo say Phil Laak is passive. I mean I know he bops up and down in his hoodie trying to act crazy but if you look at his actual play it's pretty nitty really.

First river bet seems really spewy to me, not sure what we are repping at all, especially for pot vs a nit. Kinda see why you want to call the river but I don't think its going to be +ev. Much more on board with the bet lots of turns and rivers plan. We block quite a lot of good hands, he will raise the stronger ones on the turn so we get a really profitable river bet imo.