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Mr McGuniness has passed away.

How would we judge him, in the final analysis? Good man, bad man, both, neither?

bad man, even on his death bed hasnt given peace of mind to the families of people he killed and had killed and whose bodies havent been recovered

first and foremost a murderous terrorist, who ultimately became a "man of peace"

but its not a binary answer, i suppose the answer is "both"

i was at school with William Tebbit during the Brighton bombings and afterwards saw the dreadful impact on the family. this morning his dad said "McGuinness only sought peace because he was a coward and murderer who feared arrest for personally killing people."

The courage of Martin McGuinness's victims talking today of forgiveness because they welcome peace is tremendous

kmac can come on later and say he's a hero and all that guff.not for me

It is a prickly subject because, yes he's been getting praise for giving up violence and helping bring peace in NI but the fact is (and this is a point that I've not seen raised today in tributes, for obvious reasons) that without the decades of shootings and bombing campaigns there would be no power-sharing in NI, the Unionists would still have the whip hand - Sinn Fein had to use the IRA to get the UK government to be even interested in changing the status quo in NI.

Violence worked in NI and there would have been no change in the everyday lives of Catholics in NI without it, as unpalatable as that is for people to swallow.

And non violence worked in Scotland? 

We can only view one path for each situation, so we have no idea what would have happened if the SNP were the terrorists and the IRA were the men of peace. 

To suggest that change could only have happened with violence is absurd.

Not really a good analogy.  NI was a constructed state and constructed to give one culture a majority.  That majority manifestly oppressed the minority.

Seen comments posted in other places by Celtic supporter types along the lines of RIP you did your country a great service.....

Tebbit was one of the biggest racists in British politics. I wouldn't worry about him too much if I was you.

He probably did do his country a good service, I don't really know too much about, it's not my thing. What exactly is a Celtic supporter type? I think you'll find some 'Celtic supporter types' won't consider him a hero.

http://news.sky.com/story/brighton-bombing-victim-lord-tebbit-wishes-mcguinness-an-eternity-in-hell-10809470

Classy.

No idea, I don't really understand half of it to be honest. All I know a few Celtic supporters were giving him the nod and some of the Rangers crew were blasting them for saying it.......argument then ensued.

A similar situation to South Africa many years ago. And yet Nelson Mandela thoroughly liked and respected by a huge majority of British people and around the world even tho his ascent to the pinnacle of politics in his country and peace within his country followed the same path as Mcguiness.

An IRA bomb nearly took his life so probably a tad bitter.

Martin McGuinness grew up in the Bogside in Derry, the British army shot and murdered many of his friends and IMO he done what many would of done, fought back through joining the IRA. It was a dirty war, many innocent people killed on both sides of the community.

For the last 20 years he has fought tirelessly for peace and played a huge part in the Good Friday agreement, he also shook the hand of the Queen which as a republican was a huge deal but he knew it was a statement of change and peace.

I for one believe he is and will be a huge loss for the island of Ireland.

Ian Paisley JR was asked today about Martin !McGuinness and summed it up well when he finished with "it's not how you start out in life it's how you end it that matters.

RIP Martin.

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The murder of a 6 month old because her Dad was an RAF Corporal happened  23 days after I joined the RAF myself. Martin McGuinness, as second in command of the IRA, was directly responsible for the death of Nivruti and her Dad, Mick Islania. He also has the blood on his hands of anyone else murdered by the IRA. HIs being involved in the peace process is more likely due to the waning popularity of the IRA and their methods at the time and a need to capitalise politically  on that position than a desire for peace. The man is a mass murderer by any definition and deserves none of the praise being heaped on him. I'm angry sitting here typing this at all the bullshit being said about him on mainstream news channels. I won't have the news on in my house now for fear of me putting my foot through the tv when that calculating and systematic killers face appears on there.Wish I could join the 2 Para boys for a drop of this tonight.
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Some utter tripe posted on here as usual and from a very insulated situation.  

The British Army had no right in Ireland, never has had any right in Ireland and never can have any right in Ireland.  

The occupied 6 counties were gerrymandered for generations, and in every generation were young Irishmen who fought the foreign oppressor to take control of their country and unite it.  

I am no fan of Martin McGuinness, I once was.  But I believe some of his latter day actions of taking it tight and pallying up to the british establishment to preserve peace were wrong. I think today's coverage on the BBC shows why the GFA wasn't a good deal for Republicans or nationalists.  

The contrast between McGuinness and Mandela is telling, the same folk claiming Mandella was a freedom fighter yet McGuinness a terrorist.  Both were fighting a struggle on behalf of their people.  It was a war and in war there are casualties.  But lets get one thing straight the war was orchestrated by the british security services.  

Bloody Sunday, The Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, McGurks Bar, Widow Scanlons, Pat Finucane, Rosemary Nelson.  They are just a few of the attrocities that the Brits had a prominent part in.  

If there was no british involement in Northern Ireland there would have been no PIRA.  There would have been no fight for McGuinness to get involved in and he'd have just been a regular man working in regular times as a butcher.  

But they were no ordinary times and he was a hero of his people.  

Sealadaigh Abu!!

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rK_280ebIY

1.01 landed

surprised it was that short to be honest. 

but some utter bollocks posted by a few.

You need to include yourself in that,esp when you finish  with a Provo salutation.From what I read, you actively condone  acts of terrorism.
P.S. I have no time for those terrorists from the UDA/UFF/UVF. Equally abominable people.
P.P.S I expect this thread to close real soon.

just to clarify, I was referring to this


I have no strong opinion on your or mohican's post.  

Double up- my post wasn't aimed at you. Sorry if you thought that.

Both the British government/military and the IRA sides committed some absolutely reprehensible acts.

Without Martin McGuinness's leadership it's very likely the conflict would still be ongoing.

May he rest in peace.

His leadership is why the terrorism went on for so long.

This thread should be locked

Spoilsport  :D

Why?

In a historical context this can't be true. Terribly emotive issue and deeply historic with 'troubles' to one extent or another for over 500 years.

At a time when we have the ability to kill/terrorise more people more quickly and efficiently than ever McGuiness, with many others, has actually led things in a different direction.

If I'd been directly impacted I may find this hard to acknowledge and I might not forgive him for past acts. I wouldn't want to canonise or lionise him but I would be ignoring the facts if I didn't acknowledge that he has helped bring peace about and, again, in historical terms, been responsible in part for the avoidance of 1000s ?  more deaths.

I take Micko's ticket earlier in the thread with the quote along the lines that it isn't how you start out but how you finish life.

People's feelings on this topic are too strong, it will degenerate into a shouting match over the evening as more alcohol is consumed.

Really?

nothing to do with an occupying force committing atrocities?

The flip side is there are many who believe MMcG was a double agent.  If true that makes Britains involvement even worse.

”The terrorist is always the one with the smaller bomb.” – Brendan Behan

Quite an apt quote given his passing was remembered yesterday, I don't think anything has changed in the 43 years since Brendan's death.

Why?

Well if true then the power brokers in Whitehall were sanctioning many IRA operations.

Pretty sure that's the case whether McGuinness was a double agent or not.

Thousands of people  in Derry yesterday to say their last farewell to Martin. 

Delegations from England, Scotland, Wales, Palestine, Cuba, South Africa, USA (including President Clinton), I also spoke with Basques, French, Italians and people from across the 32 Counties.  I am sure there were representations from many other countries. 

Christy Moore singing a song as well to close proceedings. 

Republicans from across Ireland were obviously sad to lose a leader, but the consensus seemed to be Martin had led his people up the hill it was time for a new generation to lead over that hill. 

Onward to the 32 County Republic!

Won't happen while the graves of the innocents are known and now the murderer is dead it's likely it won't happen

I don't quite follow Ironside's points. Not sure why his death makes this less likely. I think it's possible it could happen in time but, PokerBroker, do you not think it would be likely to lead to the violence starting up again in the lead-up and for a long time afterwards? Isn't the current set-up better than that? I still find it hard to believe that they were successful in getting this far, considering where they came from. Maybe leave well enough alone for a couple of generations til most of the population don't have personal memories of atrocities before disrupting something that, against all odds, is working so well.

To answer Ironsides point the only people not wanting a truth and reconciliation are the Brits. 

Leaders from both Republican/Loyalist backgrounds have been calling for this for years. 

@Mint - I don't actually think things are working that well tbh.  We don't see the scenes we seen in the 70's and 80's.  There is still wide spread criminality in both Republican/Loyalist areas.  The police are not trusted by either community.  There are parts in the North that are definitely more cosmopolitan, in general I think education has improved  massively as well and the ghetto mentality that used to be pursued isn't as bad. 

I don't ever think there will be a time when memories dont play a part in the struggle.  Jeez some Orangement still march in memore of the battle of the Boyne and that was 1690.  You'd think some were actually there.  Republicans still commemorate Wolfetone every year. 

I think it's fine to remember history and patriots, but there needs to be more acceptance.  I genuinley believe there is a greater willingness to that on the side of Republicans and Nationalists.  Last year the DUP were blocking same sex marriages.