blonde poker forum

Manchester Police confirms 19 dead and around 50 injured.

Will the muslim mayor of london say we need to accept this as part of every day life of living in a big city again lol

Impossible to stop all suicide bombers.
Thoughts go out to those caught up in this and there families

This concert seems to be full of teenagers. Shocked, truly not safe anywhere.

Just turned over to ITV and they have a mum on the phone who's daughter is missing. Heartbreaking stuff.

You are taking it out of context and pretty sure he didn't say accept.  He was saying every big city needs to be prepared for these incidents, which would mean so would Manchester.

RIP those that died.  Awful scenes.

I've been really desensitized to the news of terror attacks in Europe, they've become so frequent, even the Westminster one I forgot about quickly. This one is sickening. Is there anything more innocent than a bunch of young girls going to a pop concert? This might be the worst one in recent memory, given who was targeted.

Nobody knows who carried this out yet, or what their motives were. Although it's most likey, I don't think it is appropriate to assume that it was an Islamic terrorist.

Thoughts are with anyone affected by this heinous atrocity, it's so sad thinking about the poor parents whose kids didn't return home last night, and never will.

I think these days it's very appropriate to assume

On a side note not so side note, anyone else feel uncomfortable around someone in a burqa?
I was standing in a shopping aisle a few days ago and a woman, or a man, who knows, fully covered, just eyes showing was stood behind me, uncomfortable as fuck. Why no ban yet

Americans have got a pretty strong record in mass killings of innocent people.

Just let it play out.  The killer is likely to be a moron regardless.

Very much this, I think we cn all assume but that doesn't stop this shit happening.  Moreover blaise comments with sweepeing generalisations of a whole religion don't help.  

But hey, why let casual racism get in the way.

Trumpet's statement, dear lord.  When you think this guy can't get any worse . . . . .

Does he think by calling the perpetrator of such an attack a loser is going to have some meaningful  impact?

come on. meanwhile muslim doctors in Manchester hospitals work round the clock to save the injured, local community venues and places of worship from all faiths offer help to people present and relatives

just far too simplistic to generalise.

Well said tighty. 

He may have thought he was, but his actions have showed otherwise. 

Regards

I think the IRA have form for blowing up innocents but they're white and Catholic so it's Ok.

The IRA never targetted apop concert where the vast majority of those in attendance were kids. 

And being Catholic had nothing to do with it, don't be fooled into believing the lies of the establishment media. 

Catholics were not responsible for the RA just like Muslims are not responsible for ISIS and Al Quaeda.

The religion of Islamic terrorists is no mere coincidence or tengental personality quirk. It's a fundermental part of the chain of events that leads a man to feel killing himself whilst murdering prepubescent girls is a morally good action.

The IRA were Catholic but their political beliefs were the driving factor. Care to lay odds on eg an IRA terrorist praying in the week before planting a bomb? How would you price up for a Muslim terrorist praying in the week before blowing himself up.

Why is it that we can jail Mothers who don't send their kids to school but we can't deport individuals and families who kill people?

Care to lay odds on a british politician praying before ordering a shoot to kill operation or before ordering a drone strike on a muslim wedding.

Islam/Muslims are not responsible for the crazy elements of their religion just like Christianity isn't responsible for the reprehensible indiduals who have carried out mass murder on other groupings. 

The  ignorance and casual racism on display really saddens me.

Watching the media coverage of this gives you a feel for people. 

The top cop in Manchester and the new Mayor Andy Burnham clearly looked upset by the events. 

Theresa May showing strong and stable leadership with a scripted speech, no sign of empathy. 

The death toll is likely to rise in the coming hours, I'mnot religious at all, but if there is a God, I hope he is looking after all those impacted by this horrible event.

dont hope that hes doing anything
there are no gods
religions the problem
down with religion

I'm not saying a religion causes this murder. But that it is a necessary component of it in a way it wasn't for the IRA.

I dont think religious belief factored into Irish terrorism much at all other than as another label / type of otherness and difference from.

Taken from Facebook

If you're going to use what happened last night in Manchester an opportunity to spread vitriol and try to divide this amazing city by way of colour or religion, I'd like to point you in the direction of all the Muslim doctors and nurses who worked through to daylight caring for those who had been hurt, to the Asian taxi drivers who suspended all charges helping people get out of the city, to the Black security staff around the M.E.N Arena who risked their own lives to make sure everyone else was safe before they left the area themselves. This is a city built on diversity, a city that embraces and grows alongside the cultures that form in it. But more importantly this is Home. We won't be divided.

I am a british muslim who lives close to Manchester.  No doubt we will all be tarred with the same brush again, thats already clear judging by what I have seen on social media today. 

To anyone who generalises, get to know a real muslim first - I am happy to meet anyone on here for tea and a sticky bun

Well criminals have to serve their sentence here before they can be deported, the same as if we get jailed abroad. Unfortunately it's often not in our judges' hands to decree if foreign nationals or illegal immigrants get deported after they have served their sentence.

Anyway, you can't deport British people.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/manchester-suicide-attacker-was-known-to-security-services-but-not-thought-to-pose-immediate-threat-a3546401.html

'was known'
if hes 'known' to security services, get rid before hes thought to pose a threat

Not sure if serious. 

Do you have any idea how many people will be known to the security services? 

My point here being that terrorists by definition target the innocent. So whether it's Manchester,Warrington,London Underground or Eniskillen, it's all reprehensible. People seem to have forgotten how much pain and misery the IRA caused so I find it laughable when people say ban Islam,ban Muslims and knock down Mosques. By that reckoning, there should be no Catholics or Catholic Churches in Britain because of the IRA. But that would be stupid but OK to inflict on Muslims. I despair sometimes.

Firstly , prayers and thoughts to the victims and loved ones. What a sad sad time

As regards the people involved in carrying out the atrocities they can come from any walk of life but statistics indicate they will probably be ill-educated, from a poor and desperate back ground or medically ill. . These people are at their lowest point so often turn to drink and drugs or find solace in religion or cults.

These are the people that are vulnerable to indoctrination because they feel they have nothing much left to live for . So whilst a moronic and inhumane act I would suggest they have been so brainwashed they are incapable of identifying their true crime and the heart wrenching pain created.

The question what is the solution to prevent it ? Im not so sure there is one.

You realise that being white is also a race, how about those wonderful doctors/nurse/taxi drivers/security guards that just did their jobs too. Your quote starts by not wanting to divide the city by race then compliments select racial groups only for doing what any other normal human being would do.

If anything your quote is actually stereotyping racial groups!

was just about to type this.


it always amazes me how many people it turns out I know or interact with that are deep down clearly bigoted and ignorant/possibly just very racist.  yet it takes so little to bring it out in them.

I'm in agreement with you and I am definitely not in the camp of banning muslims or Islam.  But you seem to be very lazy in your analysis. 

The IRA rightly or wrongly were widely condemned by the Catholic Church. 

It is very seldom that faith leaders from the Muslim faith come out and condone these terrorists. 

Incidentally, there was a political goal that the IRA were trying to achieve, and granted  they done a lot wrong.  By god did they do wrong, but causing mass casualties was to the best of my knowledge never the plan.

 

Big +1.

Apologies if it came out like that mate, of course, that wasn't my intention at all. In this day and age where Muslims will no doubt be targeted in the aftermath, (look at the airtime given to Katie Hopkins today for example), was highlighting that even Muslims were involved. There are still those out there who think we (the whole Muslim population) support these satanic actions.

Peace and love - one humanity

It's beyond comprehension that people do this sort of stuff - I wonder what the buzz is?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-40018189

Sickos.  Very poor taste.

Easier said than done. As already said, lots of people are "known" to the security services. 99% plus would never do something like this.

Sadly I am notsurprised by the number of clowns that are racist. You always get a sense for them and normally events like this is when they appear full throttle. 

What has amazed me, are the number of folk I know who class themselves as Irish Republicans calling for a return to internment.

exstream-ist

Do these Muslim countries have churches or other places of worship over there

Is there a particular country you are thinking of? 

muslimland....

what ever countries are mainly muslim religion innit

im guessing muslim dominated countries dont even allow churches or christians lol

Given what has happened how about lowering the jovial tone and flippant remarks  ?

https://twitter.com/KTHopkins

you two should hook up

Awful, just awful.

But what I can not believe, is the fact that bags & bodies have not been checked. What on earth? Working in events myself, this is out main aim. You aren't getting into the nightclub without a body search & a bag check. This was exactly the same at the football last week with 32,000 fans. No check whatsoever.

If you take the attitude of "it'll never happen to us" with your security checks, then be rest assured, it will happen sooner rather than later.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAiUOfFWsAIK_0T.jpg)

He wasn't searched because he entered the venue after the performance had finished, when everyone was leaving.

Obvious tactic when you have hindsight, but aftertiming is easy now.

https://www.bowlandcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77387

On the off chance you're actually trying to educate yourself rather than make snarky self congratulatory remarks about a terrorist attack.

i was indeed
found this link https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/27/where-in-the-world-is-it-worst-place-to-be-a-christian
differs a lot from the one you shared

no ones biting fella, only showing yourself up

One Love

If you listen to the reports, people have said how lapse the security was. This included no bag or body checks.

It doesn't matter.

Have you ever been at any sort of event (apart from football matches to keep rival fans apart) with security after it has finished?

Was clearly targeted as a weak point of security at major events.

I've been to around 10 events at the arena in last year from boxing, to comedy, to concerts.  Searched every time and never saw a person not.

I can believe they didn't pat down children perhaps but severely doubt it was lax at the door. As Keith said. It's a weak spot.  Perhaps keep the dogs around after the show. Plus don't let people into foyer etc etc. Very hard to ever prevent this type of thing

just got to ban religion in this country and section any crazies that believe, easy

You make it blatantly obvious that you don't need to be religious to be crazy

Geo

Had a similar discussion on Facebook a year ago, if you look at global historical atrocities and see what %  especially in modern days, are committed in the act of religion it's staggeringly low. 

If you were then to filter out the religious terrorist acts not genuinely committed for religious reasons you'd find the overall figure not even making a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage. Is just a metric for propaganda, if not religion then it would be something else.

Is easy to take for granted, but the freedom to believe, think, say and do what you want is one that is relatively new to us...to Just "ban" one of these freedoms would hugely disrespect the tens of millions of people who died for them.

There is loads of this all over facebook.  People setting up fake condolence sites for "friends" just to generate followers and likes.  I expect there are a fair few fake gofundme pages by now too.  A fair few scumbags in the World. 

Theresa May says UK threat level raised to Critical - meaning a new attack is expected imminently (last time that high, June 2007)

PM also announces Operation Temperer has been enacted - allowing police to call on immediate help of 5,000 troops

US leak of Manchester attacker's name strikes new blow to intelligence sharing

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/trump-administration-manchester-bomber-name-leak?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAfz97GWsAEl1GO.jpg)

Did anyone hear Nicky Campbell on 5Live this morning?

He went up to a couple of young Muslim guys in Manchester yesterday to get their view - they believe this atrocity was actually done by the British Government.

I know a poker player in Sheffield, very nice guy, clearly very intelligent who believes the 9/11 killings were done by the CIA.

With these views within sections of what appear to be mainstream Muslims, you can see why a tiny minority are radicalised.

This is going to be an ongoing issue for decades.

In theory, changing our foreign policy, agreeing an education policy for children from all backgrounds might be part of the answer but its going to be 20-30 years plus away.

What is the percentage out of interest and what are the categories?  Are the Crusades classed as religious atrocities for example?  ISIS?

(https://i.gyazo.com/1591e96b5bd61b1944ce9c2aec9c157c.png)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/808221/Manchester-terror-Home-Office-returning-Isis-fighters-arrested

surely not

Surely both you and the Express can use google?   Even the Mail and Sun have managed to find a few people who have been arrested. 

And it seems absolutely obvious why they won't say who they are monitoring and why. 

The bit I don't understand is how these people are on watch lists and get the chance to commit these attrocities.

If they are on the watch list for

1, the people they mix with

2, the countries they visit

3, the views they openly express/web sites they visit and have been monitored doing so

then surely the intelligence services should be all over them?

How many times do we have to hear this story and the Minisiter for Whatever tell us about all the 13 other bomb plots they stopped since 2015?

It doesn't matter.

If you clear out every moron that looks like perpetraiting a religous crime, then we quickly rid ourselves of a massive number. I can't help getting really angry when I hear we have these people on watch lists, yet they get to a stage where they kill people.

For example, If I become a criminal or go to a banned country, and I am warned about my actions prior to taking them, then I expect to be forced to make certain compromises in my freedoms going forward.

We should now live in a society where it should come as no surprise to anyone caught preaching hate/going to Libya for terrorism school, or looking how to build a bomb websites, if you suddenly get locked up.

I guess that means I am not some liberal softie, but I am also sure it can be applied to whoever commits these crimes, regardless of whatever religion etc, and doesn't make me some form of racist(before anyone suggests it)

Like I said, there are genuine and numerous reports that the security on the night was questionable and that searches didn't take place for everyone. If you let your guard down for one minute, then you are in trouble.

In addition to this, I went to to Hillsborough last week and no search, Wembley last year and the search was even more pathetic.

Of course security searches at venues are perfunctory at best - it's security theatre. They're mainly checking to see you're not smuggling in your own food and booze so the venue can gouge you once you're inside.

If people associate with known terrorists, go to areas of countries with terrorist training camps and express views like how to build bombs and anything else you probably mean by the third point then the security services will be all over them.

But that's not what all the people are on a watchlist for. They'll also be on there because they have also done only one of those three - then there'll be people who have some kind of association with any of the people who have done one or more of those three - including most of their family. There will also probably be people who know the people who know the people who have done at least one of the three.

Even if it there was enough money to spend the 100's of billions it would need to keep every single one of them under constant surveillance, there wouldn't be enough manpower - or, possibly most importantly, time to analyse all the data that would produce.

Unless you want to lock up several thousand people who have never committed any crime then the only way the intelligence services can act is to prioritise the people they know about - the plots they've stopped are when they've prioritised right. But you can't expect any system to never fail.

I smuggle booze into just about every sporting event and concert/show I go to, so they are even shit at that!

TBF it's not like the state apparatus hasn't got its hands covered in blood you don't have to look to far into British securocrats who have run double agents or been involved in the murder of innocent civilians.

I am not saying that is what happened here but it has happened before and I am sure at the time people would have thought you were nuts for suggesting it was even a possibility..

An initial analysis of the Manchester blast indicates a bomb in which its shrapnel was carefully and evenly packed http://nyti.ms/2qXf4l1

this is all leaked to the NYT

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAnhO8YXUAAeSbL.jpg)

Leaks:

- Suspect name (NBC/CBS)
- Crime scene pics bag / device (NYT)
- Device spec (NBC)
- Bomber ID process (NBC)
- Al Qaeda link (NBC)

the UK people are running out of forms of words to convey they fury at all this in public

A man on Radio Scotland advocated a Muslim ban.

Host asked him if he should be blamed for Ian Brady.

Man: "What's that got to do with me?"

Context on cuts to UK armed police

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/05/what-debate-over-troops-streets-missing

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAmvIT5XkAEj3HN.jpg)

BREAKING: BBC has learnt that police have stopped passing on information about Manchester bombing to the US following leaks.

It's such a shame, soon everywhere we go is just gonna be security everywhere, going into restaurants, shops everywhere :(

bomber Salman Abedi was in Dusseldorf four days before the attack, German intelligence says http://trib.al/gxECeDy

Looking more and more like the Manchester bomber was part of a complex terrorist network

bbc

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAqA1dLXcAEuzP1.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAqA1soXUAMbxUm.jpg)

It is so depressing when idiots say stuff like that. Fortunately, we can totally discount their views as they are clearly unable to process information in a coherent manner.

Can we totally discount their views? I worry about the numbers that have this view. Is there anyway of them changing their views?

Fair point Matthew.

Way too many seem to think that is the answer, & I don't think it will be in their nature to change their views or listen to rational logic.

Banning any religion, any time, anywhere on this planet, will always worsen the position.

Eduaction and a fairer distribution of the wealth of the world is the only solution I can possibly see.

And that would take decades.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

Education would certainly help.

There is no way this was a lone ranger type thing akin to Westminster. This has probably been in the pipeline and planning stages for a long time sadly. And the situation (a high profile pop concert in a famous music venue, lots of younger attendees, loads of people congregating in a relatively enclosed space with easy access) was a perfect melting pot for their atrocity.

Can't remember exactly when it came in, but we've been getting searched, padded down and 'zapped' upon entry to Eastlands for a good few months now. Looks like that will be ongoing for quite the foreseeable.

It's just so difficult to see how you stop it? All the intelligence in the world can't stop a crazed individual getting in a car and driving on the pavement, and even the very best intelligence won't stop every attack before it happens.

they took control of the office of the president of the USA.

there are an inordinate amount of them it turns out.


so in no way are we fortunate that some can see this for the idiocy it is.


I just saw an interesting tweet that I haven't seen from multiple sources yet, stating that since Westminster 5 attacks have been foiled.    (i'll remove if inaccurate).





At least we've recently had a really competent home secretary who worked to provide as much funding as possible for the police and emergency services.............................

yes

BREAKING. Security officials say since 2013, 18 plots have been thwarted - including five since the Westminster attack in March.

Circuit board found in Manchester bomb detonator suggests someone was ready to trigger explosive remotely if attacker Salman Abedi’s nerve failed

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3645891/manchester-another-bomber-nerve-failed/

If they have the technology to trigger it remotely, why did they sacrifice an operative who was prepared to place a bomb?

Virgins ldo...

https://vimeo.com/24341019

So to be clear the tories have cut back on policing and we are to be  believed they are providing strong and stable governance?

I fully expect that Labour won't make political capital out of this attack but Mrs May in her previous job promised to cut immigration to the 10's of thousands, it increased, no doubt there has been a greater security risk from many of those people who have landed here.  I wonder how many of those involved in the thwarted attacks were homegrown?

I think without going and checking there has been more terror in the UK on the tories watch than when under Labour. 

Lastly, can you imagine what the situation would have been in Manchester had the tories had their way and brought in more privatisation to the NHS. 

There seems to me no plan for combatting extremists, if there is it must be a secret. 

Maybe Corbyn was right all along, after all he had the foresight see this happening when speaking out against the Iraq invasion.  It seems that over the past few days every security expert I have listened to now accepts that the country as a whole would be much safer had it not been for the Iraq invasion and subsequent  attacks in Syria and for supporting the overthrow of Gaddaffi.

How much planning does something like this actually take
Like past the brain washing part
Is it just too easy for them to send someone over here from wherever, have them make a bomb and then blow something up the next day.

It would be appropriate to look at how much of the budget has been spent on counter terrorism rather than the police budget as a whole.

I would be suprised if the coalition or Tories actual cut spending in that area given the events in Paris, Brussels etc in recent years.

How can you stop someone making a bomb and blowing something up though?

Organised terror plots seem to be foiled the vast % of the time (which i find quite incredible tbh)...hence why the ISIS newsletter (omg yes that's a thing :S ) encourages solitary lunatics to drive cars/lorries etc into crowded places. No elaborate planning required and very difficult for the authorities to foil a plot which basically only exists in someones mind.

Scary times we live in.

To answer pokerbroker's point about Labour not making political capital out of this attack and his point about policing budgets - I looked at the numbers.

In 2015, rather than cutting the budget to protect us against terrorism, Osborne committed to increase the budget from £11.7bn to £15.1bn over the parliament.

It doesn't suit Pokerbrokers narrative but specifically on counter terrorism there has been a much higher budget and significant increase above inflation.

It would be stupid of Corbyn to attack them on this issue. He has other areas where he should attack government policy.

Agree with David.

As I said earlier in the thread, I cannot see a solution. If we send more bombs over to ISIS it will just multply the amount of people who want to sign up for jihad.

Scary indeed.

What is wrong with a bit of redistribution of wealth?

Many Arab Muslims live in oil rich countries, yet very few of the inhabitants of the country benefit from this.

Seems unfair doesn't it.

And things feel safer.  Increasing the budget is all very well but that doesn't make it safer if you are cutting front line staff and waging a cyber war. 

I don't have a narrative here, just thinking out loud.  Indeed I'm not a Labour voter or supporter.  But I think I felt safer when Labour were in charge. 

I prefer this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gMJBQoHJ4E

interesting article

"The attack on Manchester Arena – and those on the Bataclan and the Pulse nightclub before it – can trace their roots to the Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia. The UK and US governments just won’t admit it"

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/manchester-attack-salman-abedi-salafi-jihadism-wahhabism-isis-al-qaeda-islam-muslim-suicide-bombing-a7754301.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40059351

15 years lol, k

You know what would really help fight terrorism; if people stopped whinging about maintaining their 'privacy' and just let the authorities monitor the internet, phones, fucking everything that can be monitored. As soon as some tool like this looks up 'bomb making' stick him on a list and monitor his every move. When he purchases a bag of ball bearings from his local DIY store then go and nab him.

Let's get ID cards as well and have fines for not carrying them. Anyone who's slightly dodgy just give them a few points or something so people know they're possibly up to no good. People also need to understand that they may be challenged for an ID card. If they don't like it fuck off somewhere that doesn't make you have a card.

Rant over. Thanks for listening.

I'd vote for you.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/manchester-arena-bomber-salman-abedi-10498466

Wonder how many others have been reported and investigated several times

I wouldn't.

It's not carrying the id card that I object to perse, it's the opportunity for misuse of authority it affords to to those deemed entitled to demand it.

Agree with Tom.

If we give up our precious liberties for the sake of a couple of dozen nutters, then I think the terrorists have won.

BREAKING Threat level cut. Troops off the streets after Monday

all of this network apparently arrested

...

Ohhhh go on, spit it out  :D

Oh good. Problem solved then.

I accidentally hit a shortcut for post (I didn't even know there was one lol). in b4 wall of text.

Rant starting strap yourself in.

Sorry Matt but this is a load of bollocks.

We already do most of this and it's not working, unfortunately we have home secretarys and career (tosspot) politicians looking to further themselves and seek power and limelight and future contracts so we don't have evidence or expert based policies.

In case you missed it Five Eyes scans the whole internet, and 'stores it all'.  Multiple overly qualified IC experts have stated that they are drowning in too much 'dross' (search William Binney for more). Whilst also internal reports have stated that ZERO positive gain has been found in relation to stopping terrorist threats (literally not a single fucking dangerous thing has been stopped, but we have hundreds of thousands of hours billed for analysts where that funding doesn't go towards actual front line work). Now of course these reports have also shown how great it is for analysts to be able to stalk their ex gfs, partners etc, share and compare risque pictures people send over the internet and how easily and frequently this mass of data is abused. Imagine what will happen when its not the highly vetted IC and a whole load of police or other random institutions like the Bangor post office and Northern Irish fish smaller than 2mm bureau who have access to 'everything' (this sarcasm is referencing the recent list of institutions that UK gov will be sharing ALL our data with and the list is fucking stupid both in the length and the scope of many of the institutions).


The sort of tool who has to type bomb making into the internet from their own registered address and computer is as you say a tool and will be easily caught. Sticking someone on a list and monitoring their every move is a completely political bollocks thing to say, for every single person you want to have on a high intensity monitoring program will take upwards of 50 front line staff (for example MI5 has 4000 staff, yet it is reported that 3000 people alone have returned from Syria to the UK). If we were to similarly 'nab' anyone buying potentially dangerous substances then every hairdresser, farmer, chemist, builder, scientist yada yada would be in trouble. This is the whole point of an IED its improvised, it's what you can make with what you can get your hands on easily and with a minimum of skill.



The idea that 'encryption' is the enemy even though nearly everything we do day to day requires it is bullshit again. It's just more lower level cretins who want their life to be easier and not to have to do their job. Why bother with good old fashioned police work and expertise when you can just complain you want to read everyones communications. If Tikay and I are communicating through wattsapp and we both have the most up to date version so we are encrypted then they can still see we are passing communications just not what they say. BUT if as is likely Tikay is on a naughty list then they have a myriad of legal ways to access this. Breaking the backbone of basic communication is not the way to do it.

When we realised that baddies were sending letters in the post, we didn't require everyone to use post cards, we provided the police and IC with the ability where they had probable cause to access this communication in transit, then continue it on to it's recipient. Similarly if they needed to access Tikays phone to see what quantity of concrete was being discussed they can use similar methods. They already have the legal protections to break into your house, to put cameras in your house, to monitor your cars movements, to listen in on you at all times. 30 seconds of watching these cameras would reveal Tikays phone pin and voila there is no encryption (if he uses fingerprint then they can force him to open it already). The whole of society hasn't lost it's ability to not be tracked, profiled and subjugated and with some proper police work they have complete access to what they need.

In the case of the high profile San Bernadino case and subsequent begging for access to encrypted devices it was proven that the government COULD break the encryption anyway they just didn't want to because that would just provide information on a terrorist not some ways to make profit and capitalise on weakened communications for all. As usual there are vast ulterior motives related to money, power and never once protecting the populace. Those are just words used by charlatans (politicians) to make the peoples think wow we need that. Straight after the Bataclan attack the same shitty papers and same shitty government officials instantly wailed on about encryption and people were scared. Subsequently after police work it was found that no encryption was used by the attackers. They just used primitive methods and open communication devices to organise themselves (http://prntscr.com/fcoczu). So why the instant shouts against encryption? Can anyone believe I would be cynical enough to think they had ulterior motives? Really? could they?



It feels so gratifying to know that the very same turd of a home secretary that knew it was best to cut the police aggressively to save them from increasing tax on the overly wealthy or from having to stop giving politicians pay rises out of line with the rest of the public sector stood in front of us and patronised us that we needed the soldiers on our streets because we don't have enough armed police. I'm sure we could have protected a few more venues if shites like Blair didn't have large armed police presences on every single one of his fucking 'property portfolio'. What a great use of resources, go to war illegally for dire reasons, lie about it, profit from other treasury decisions you guys make whilst in power, retire whilst patronising the world that you are the guy to help bring peace deals and who should be paid exceptionally large amounts for his wisdom but because now that 'could cause some distress' he needs constant armed guards, not just where he is but all of his properties. Yeh seems a great use of resources.



What's next? we want more numbers related policing, we haven't got our 7 baddies of the month so we start going down the American route and just setup mentally disabled people, provide them the tools and fake bombs they need, put them on the bus (because they are too disabled to get there themselves and don't even have the funds for a bus ticket) then come in make the super important arrest, parrot it through some shitty state propaganda media organisation and pat everyone on the back for making us more safe, whilst saying look at these figures, so many arrests, much terrorism, we need more money and bigger budgets. Rinse repeat. (https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-another-mentally-ill-man-armed-fbi/   &  https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/ are just a very quick start of these).





Cliffs -

general public are ignorant turds
IC are underfunded and under respected
politicians are charlatan twatbags
encryption is good, politicians lie
expertise/experts > charlatans
cliffs > walls of text

I cant believe I missed out on the opportunity to say


that's not a rant



this is a rant



(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZeRshLoRZEA/hqdefault.jpg)
 ;grr; ;tk; ;dingdell;

I can't believe you managed to find flaws in my one paragraph 'save the world' plan.

Who knew you had to actually think about things like resources for these sort of things?

I best go back to the drawing board and work on paragraph two.

I cant believe I wrote many many words and my two line + picture def is more effective  :dontask:

+ it's for sure a problem that you put more thought into your post than politicians do into policy effecting millions for decades.

For what it's worth I agree with most of what you said. My point about people's privacy is that the general public could be more accommodating with allowing access rather than being outraged. It would then be easier to implement policy to monitor rather than have to do it covertly and get called out by 'anonymous' on Facebook every day.

Something I've been thinking about recently is how much money is spent on nuclear deterrent. Surely whatever deterrent we had last year is still a pretty good deterrent this year? Just think how much resource could be provided on the ground if we stopped making new nukes to replace the old ones which apparently can't quite fuck everyone up enough anymore.

you are confusing islam with radical or extreme islam

you wouldn't equate Christian with the Ku Klux Klan (or name other christian extremists of your choice) would you?

yet thats the sort of direct link you are trying to draw

Islam is roughly 1.8bn people strong, about 24% of the world's population and the fast growing religion in the world.

the proportion of those who advocate extremism/ISIS/anti west? tiny.

yeh but my gods better than your god bro.

+ brown and different = scared.


no chance a non Muslim religious person grows up Muslim if they grow up in the middle east  ;whistle;

Thanks for that, watch a few of his vids, that guy is spot on.

How many people in the UK have been affected by this threat to humanity in the last 15 years? How many Muslims live in the UK? Are you capable of understanding how division works?

Wonder how our foreign policy compares if we want to play the threat to humanity game  ;whistle;

Not saying there isn't a problem, but right wing droolers yelling "ISLAM!" with full throated intensity every 10 minutes are doing the precise opposite of helping.

but we cant use reason and logic  ;dingdell; ;dingdell; ;dingdell;

Religion is the slow kid in the class.

that website is legit convincing. I'm already half muslim just from clicking on it.

do you lease your cars from here? https://www.lingscars.com/
 rotflmfao rotflmfao

How many Muslims have been killed in that same period by attacks on them by the likes of ISIS and Buka Haram?

How many innocent people have been killed as a result of military aggression by Britain/America and their allies in the middle east?

How many Palestinians have been killed as a result of Israel's continued attack in the Westbank?

lol 'TROP is a non-partisan, fact-based site which examines the ideological threat that Islam poses to human dignity and freedom'. Interesting that they already know the conclusion before they 'lay out the facts'.

How many of the deaths quoted are from muslim on muslim violence?


If only they knew to call any attacks on the West crusades then it would be in good fun  ;goodvevil;

A word in favour of the muslim faith (anecdoctal I know).  My mum is seriously ill in hospital so I am up there every day.  She and her partner are Tory/Borderline UKIP in political stance compared to my more soft Tory stance.  Muslim Chaplain/Iman (?)was up there today and ended up in my mum's room by mistake and got ambushed by the chatty aforementioned pair.  I was preparing to disappear under the hospital bed.  Anyway, chat got on to Manchester and the Iman dealt with things very well and stayed for about 20 minutes.  My folks didn't say anything outrageously out of line but the atmosphere felt hostile to Islam and religion in general (to me anyway).  Anyway I followed him outside and said along the lines of "sorry if that was uncomfortable and I thought you dealt with the situation very well.  I appreciate your tolerance".    He said "no problem - I understand feelings are running high at the moment and it's understandable".

A really nice chap.

I'm a pretty tolerant person really, but what I cannot stand is people expecting Muslims to apologise for events like Manchester.

White Christians haven't apologised for the Portland murders. and nor should they.

Agreed Camel. It's the 0.5% that hijack and twist religions that are the problem.

Not the vast, vast majority that are decent honest people.

The thing is that every time this happens, there are a raft of apologies and much soul searching by the Muslim community.  This is swifty followed by a bunch of people asking why they don't EVER apologise?

Not really sure you got my point.  Point was the guy was obviously deeply religious but happy to chat about things.  Nobody in the scenario was asking him to apologise.

No, I get your point I think. I was expecting your mother and partner to ask for an apology.

I was refreshingly surprised they didn't after your description of them.

They were more along the lines of "don't understand how someone who can get so wrapped up in the name of religion kills themselves and others".  He agreed with that sentiment and did not understand either.

Edit:  Perhaps it was my own worries that were wrong that my folks weren't going to get along with him and he wouldn't be understanding of their views.  I guess i was the person who was wrong to be worried about it.  Anyway - I was surprised at how well the conversation went.

Sounds decent.

Best wishes to your mother.

If your only knowledge of Islam is the television or Daily Mail you can see how this kind of thing would happen.

You didn't watch three girls.

0% of British muslims think homosexuality is acceptable?

I know a homosexual Muslim.

Some Christians think homosexual marriage is wrong.

Most Jews thinks it's ok to mutilate a young boy's genitals and abortion is wrong in almost all cases.

Sikh's cannot drink.

Methodists cannot gamble.

Hindu women must walk behind the men.

Religion is a load of mumbo jumbo.

I'm not sure fact means what you think it means.

Does he think it's acceptable?

I know right.  ;dingdell;

Depends if his latest crush is treating him well or not tbh.

sex drugs and rock and roll ?

other religions like it?


posts like 0% when talking about 1.5 billion just devalue any point made

0.016%
(https://media.giphy.com/media/DHqth0hVQoIzS/giphy.gif)

Bit soon for a benefit gig isn't it?

Not that it offends me, but if it offends one family of someone affected by the bomb, then I would wait for a month or two at the very least.

This is funny

You should understand how these surveys are conducted towards getting sensational results. Does it not occur to you that a figure of 0% may be conducted with a mind towards selling the data? By the same token you could conduct a similar poll and come up with a list of crazy things Europeans are supposed to believe. And as for 'reliability', you know the polls got Brexit wrong, and got Trump wrong, and got the last British general election wrong.

No one's denying that some parts of the Islamic world have questionable values, including on homosexuality. What you should do however if you have any semblance of integrity whatsoever, is to acknowledge that some parts of the Christian world do too, not excluding the UK.

As for Rotherham - it was a horrific scandal. As was Jimmy Saville, the BBC, Catholic Church, care home and football scandals which also affected thousands of children. I wonder are you really interested in rape victims or abused children in general? Why alienate Muslims exclusively in relation to the rest of us?

As far as I’m concerned Muslims or anyone can believe what they like. It’s none of my fucking business. Living in a free society means tolerating people with different religious beliefs. If a Muslim commits a terror act in the name of ISIS or you go Anders Brevik on us we deal with it. But mainly we're talking about people who live among us, some for several generations who are just trying to get on with their lives like the rest of us…but face prejudice and hatred from people like you because of the acts of extremists.

You can say the same about Christians. In America Muslims are more likely to support gay marriage than Evangelical Christians.

According to the FBI, 94% of terrorist attacks carried out in the United States from 1980 to 2005 have been by non-Muslims

There have been over one thousand terrorist attacks in Europe in the past five years. Take a guess at what percent of those terrorists were Muslim. Wrong, now guess again. It’s less than 2%.

And yet only 0.003% of Uk muslims are potential child rapists.Why aren't we seeing child rapes in the millions in the UK?

Sure you're interested in discussing the beliefs of Muslims? Because it seems as though your aim is to find some amount of Muslims that are batshit insane and use their actions as fuel for some kind of race war.

When you combine your total logical fallacies with ridiculous conspiracy theories of "no go zones up north" and 23000 jihadis despite being repeatedly told you are wrong by people itt, it becomes quite clear that you are just a bigot.

You keep making these ludicrous statements, conjuring up "facts", being refuted, then coming out with the same thing again a few days later.

million you even read either article, you just seem to  ;ifm;

first one talks about 'disputed claims'.

2nd one straight away says,

"About 3,000 people from the total group are judged to pose a threat"


but 23k sounds better  ;applause;

very heartening to see many peeps on here seeing through the bulls*** being sprouted on here. Thank you.

P.S.  Please tell me where these no go areas are in the North??? lol

One newspaper article from 2001? Is that really the best you can do?   

Are you aware of how much damage 23000 Jihadi's could do? There were no more than 500 active members of the IRA at any one time and they came pretty close to destroying the British government. If your figure was even close to being true it'd be the end of normal life in this country, but in actuality you're more likely to be killed by your microwave than an act of terrorism.

I think this is the best post I have ever seen on blonde

These Jihadi's are incredibly piss poor terrorists in comparison to the IRA and ETA.

It's not uncommon to hear people say things like, "Religion is more trouble than it's worth" "So many wars caused from religion" "Should just be no religion" etc and to a certain degree you gotta understand the point when you just see time and again atrocities committed with a religious connection, and incidents such as the Manchester Arena one always provides a very emotional response which is nothing but entirely natural.

The next logical leap is that Muslims in particular are the problem, and once again in the wake of such an horrible event like the Manchester bombing, which was without question committed by a fanatical muslim terrorist, you can't really blame people for wanting ti pour scorn onto Islam for it's role in the horror.

But this is just naive and ignorant way to think, find any war, any terrorist act, any crime even and at it's core you'll find the same things, Power Hunger, Greed, Hatred, Ignorance. Religion doesn't encourage these things, people do. There are 1.8 billion muslims in the world and ISIS at it's all time peak is thought to have 200,000 active members, supporters and benefactors - approx 0.00001% of the global muslim community. If religion, and specifically Islam is such a bloody-hungry, hateful, terrorist-inspiring faith - why is only 1 in every 1m people that read the book reacting this way??

Let's look at history, terrorists citing christianity as their inspiration have been killing people for thousands of years, and yet still make up the smallest % of the Christian community. I could find 20+ atrocities committed since 2000 with zero religious motivation - how were these poeple incited to kill if not by religion.

PEOPLE make these choice, not religion, the fact it's been such a successful weapon of radicalisation throughout the years does not make religion the problem, the people are hateful manipulative people and if religion wasn't the method they used to spout their ignorant, blood thirsty bile then it would 100% be something else. It's just the box the bomb comes in, it's nothing to do with the bomb itself.

The big danger here is once we take these views, we lower our thinking to that of the terrorists, and hate is what forms from it. We're playing directly into their game, which is why I tough as it is to remain logical in the wake of such horrible things like the manchester bombing, and that dreadful feeling of not feeling 100% safe in your own home, I cannot stress how important it is to remember that in ISIS we're dealing with criminals, not muslims.

wow

10,000 people falsely claimed they were at the Manchester attack to get free tickets for Sunday's benefit - Ticketmaster

wonder who is to blame for the latest terrorist attack in london
could be white christians!
surely not muslims again, theyre not a huge problem

seems the religion of peace has struck again

How dare you suggest such a thing you filthy racist  ::)

Not good by the sounds of it 😭

might not be muslims but if it is, when we going to say islam is dangerous

What is your solution?

have anyone that 'believes' sectioned

UKIP/Brexit voter are you?

August 1995 White Supremacist Set of a bomb in Oklahoma and killed 168 people

September 14 2001 (4 days after 9/11) A Sikh Man was brutally murdered by a christian extremist who mistook him for a Muslim.

July 27th 2008, Christian extremest walks into a Unitarian church during a CHILDRENS play session and starts firing at random, killing 3 people (he was bravely wrestled to the ground which prevented further causalities)

July 22nd 2011, Christian extremest Anders Behring Breivik, set off a car bomb in then going on a shooting spree at a children's summer camp, killing 77 people.

August 5th, 2012 White Christian walks into a Sikh Temple and shoots 6 people

April 13th 2014, White supremacist killed 6 people in a Jewish Community centre.

April 16th, 2007, Korean Born terrorist stormed virginia tech college and killed 32 people, leaving a killing manifesto in which he likens himself to "The Lord Jesus Christ"

June 17th 2015, White supremacist stormed a black-african church and shot 9 people.

November 27th 2015, Anti abortion christian group shot 7 people with an air rifle outside a planned parenthood clinic.



Ever heard of Army of God? US Terror group killed over 500 people in anti-abortion attacks, including anthrax attacks

Ever heard of the IRA, killed 1800 civilians in Rep/N.I throughout time

Ever heard of a little incident known as the Halocoast? 6 million people were ordered to be executed by a christian man because they were Jewish.

These people are criminals, not representatives of their religion, and every religion has then unfortunately associated to them.

The intention with these attacks is to encourage westerners to turn against Muslims, then...more muslims will turn to extremism, this people are hate-filled lunatics, but there are still 1,700,800,000 Muslims in the world who don't share these beliefs but every post like the one you made pushes one more towards radicalisation and makes attacks like last nights more likely.... I get how easy it is to be angry and wanna blame a blanket of people but I just can't stress enough how badly you shouldn't.

Tighty was right

You are quoting from a 2006 survey, which seems a bit desparate.  There are 3m Muslims in the UK and 62 million other people.  How many kids do you think they are going to each have so that there are 60 odd million of them in "decades"?  And that assumes the non Muslim population doesn't grow.

And if 40% of Muslims do still want "Sharia law" by then, that is only 20% of the total population, so what are the chances that gets implemented.  Even if everybody is a Muslim, we don't get "Sharia law" because most don't want it.

Layers and layers of dumb assumptions are needed to even get close to your doomsday scenario and even then we'll be all long dead before we are doomed because of this "infiltration".   

Lol
Crazies get sectioned
If I believed in some guy in the sky or equivalent of, i should be sextioned

Really hate it when people think we should deal with reactionary extremists by becoming reactionary extremists

its not black and white, its not all muslims. its extremists and your reaction in its own way is as bad as the people doing the terrorism.

I'm talking religion in general, all religions

this sounds like fun  ;whistle;

Yes. Hence my post.

Extremism of another kind, but still extremism

Sky sources:first police officer on the scene last night (rugby player) took on all terrorists until he was forced to ground. Serious condition in hosp

This is not quite true. I don't think one can characterise Hitler as a Christian man (more paganist beliefs).

Thinking about this in religious terms isn't helpful really - many of the most genocidal regimes/people were not underpinned by religious beliefs - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot et al. If we're going to section people with religious convictions we might as well lock up all atheists while we're at it, just in case like.

It's more about dogmatism

You're undoutabley correct, the main basis of my point though was in reaction to Exstreams post which satirically suggested last nights horrors could never have been committed by a white christian and inferred that Muslims are responsible for all the terror acts.

Went for a big, somewhat vague example to back my point up, sacrificing a little accuracy in the process :)

Just done some more research, EVERY SINGLE TERRORIST ATTACK in the last 20 years (and I've doubled checked) was committed by someone with at least one foot.

I think we should lock up everyone in the world with at least one foot. Cut the problem off RIGHT at the source imo.

Of course there's been terror attacked by all races and religions but maybe I'm the only one that would have made the attacks last night odds of 1.01 to be who I expected

Sure, and we're all grown ups and can believe as we wish, I personally don't blame the muslim population of the world, and in particular the muslim population of the UK for the actions of 0.0001% of muslims. I also think that religion is a largely positive thing for billions of people. Also respect the fact that you think differently to me.

Let's not let this interfere with the darts world cup :)

I see where you are going, next you will be locking up everyone with 8 fingers and 2 thumbs  ;whistle;

Yep. I know how to spot a troublemaker

I feel like quoting my last ranty rant at Evilpie.


What a shock. very little information at all has been released of any substance, yet our previous home secretary of 6 years who is now PM is instantly pushing for destroying the internet. She sure understands it.

How very shocking and effective. I'm sure she'll change her mind if it turns out that they didn't use encryption of any kind like Brussels etc..........

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/750786/Islamic-State-ISIS-video-disabled-suicide-bombers-wheelchairs-Mosul-explosion-executions

(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/Disabled-suicide-bomber-750786.jpg)

hilter himself identified as a christian man. he says in the first chapter of mein kampf that he is doing god's work in killing jews, every officer of his party had to swear a declaration that began 'i swear by almighty god' and the first treaty made by the national socialist was with the Vatican whereby the roman catholic church was allowed to control german religious eductation. saying hitler wasnt someone who was inspired by his god is wrong.

likewise with the recent terrorist attacks you cant gloss over religion as if it is a mere coincidence in these murders, that its significance is on a par with the presence of feet or fingers.

The people carrying out these attacks believe they are doing gods work.

it absolutely is islamic terrorism, and is an attack on western democracy, liberalism and freedom.

I value those things dearly, and i think that those of us on the liberal / left need to stop coming up with trite analogies that try to explain away the ideology at the heart of this murder as being a mere by product or extraneous characteristic of the murderers - steam from the engine if you like.

radical islam is the fuel and if not the prime mover of this murder. and we should acknowledge that and be willing to confront it.

Several similar attacks in quick succession now. I wonder what happens if they become even more frequent? Suicide bombers walking into primary schools for max effect? I think we can all agree this is a very serious problem, a growing problem without any kind of obvious solution. So we do indeed live in scary times. It's unfortunate Islam is being used as the vehicle for these attacks but nonetheless it is the vehicle and we do need to understand how to solve that part. If attacks become more regular, more serious, hostility to muslims will surely grow, in fact even now I see the actual President of America banning muslims and European governments banning the burqa.

So what's our plan to stop more attacks? We can talk about all the plots we've foiled but over recent times the terrorists are having major success. Sure, in theory the % of crazy terrorists is miniscule but in the real world today they are devastatingly effective at what they're doing. I can only imagine the fist-pumping that went on in team terrorist when the twin towers came down. I was amazed to read that the Manchester terrorist had a remote on his device but chose to die because this really presents the complexity of the problem. How do you stop somebody brainwashing somebody else? And what worldly goods do you offer the guy who's motivated by virgins in heaven? I guess friends and family informing authorities will be vital if they suspect extremist views and that info must be treated with the highest priority, big prison sentences, internet restrictions, press censorship, even a reduction of the civil liberties we've held so dear? If anti-muslim emotion grows and basic freedoms erode I can only imagine how angry the finger-wagging liberals are going to become. 

Teddy I agree that Islamic terrorism is a big issue, no-body can dispute that.

What I can dispute, and do dispute is that MUSLIMS or RELIGION is the problem, Muslims, Islam and Religion is not the problem, terrorists and extremists are the problem and every religionand set of beliefs has them. Obviously, we're confronted more with Islamic extremism than anything in recent times so it seems (and it is to a certain extent) more prevalent.

I was out in a pub last night less than 15 minutes from where that took place, just meeting some friends minding my own business not causing any harm to anyone and yet was unknowingly in some very real danger, and I am sure that there were also many good, decent muslim people in exactly the same boat as me.

Need to fact-check better. My bad.

 

Yep. I know you were just countering some of the pure race driven stuff

I take yr ticket on this mostly (with the exception of the Hitler is a christian motif) and I would like to think it's compatible to embrace multiculturalism here whilst attacking IS and being completely intolerant of hate preachers and the like.

"What I can dispute, and do dispute is that MUSLIMS or RELIGION is the problem"

religion isnt the problem, but it a problem

if we pause for thought surely any serious person will see that a credulous mindset that outsources its moral code to a 2000 year old text - a text that was written centuries after the fact and was handed down orally as the people in the story were illiterates -  isnt something we should promote.

a mindset that believes in both vicarious redemption and the concept of heaven - wrongs that can be attoned for by others and good deeds that can be rewarded in the afterlife

now those mindsets we might feel are benign. but i  would argue they are pernicious.

when the books that they draw their moral code from aren't conclusively against religious war, genocide, murder jihad etc etc - people can and do use these books to justify murder, rape, slavery etc -  thats when they can be dangerous.

a truly religious person is capable of anything.

the following two conditions:

there is no right and wrong outside of god.

AND

there is no objective and clear guide as to what god thinks

mean:

if you're a rabbi and you believe that god likes young boys penises to be mutilated, then you do the decent thing and circumcise as many boys as you can

if you are a christian and you believe god doesn't like men buggering each other then you try to suppress the gay rights movement

if you are a muslim and believe god wants you to kill western children then you strap a bomb to your chest and wait by the exits of a concert aimed at teenage girls

there isnt much choice here. once you truly believe god is the source of morailty its a mere matter of interpretation as to how you act.

religion is a problem for secular western society - even in its most beneign form it gives dignity and appereance of stoicism to what is a morally weak mindset

Good posts Dave. Widespread alienation of people who are mostly just living the life they are born into due to the actions of fanatics would be a very scary consequence.

Literally nobody outside of ISIS likes ISIS. You have to say they are Muslim by definition, but they are the most hated group in the Muslim world.

What I said directly after the part of my post you quoted was that terrorists and extremists are the problem, which is basically exactly what you said in this, very eloquent and well thought out by the way, response. I guess your point is that the true danger of religion is that its very nature makes it a great voice for radicalisation, if you can convince people that they are following a divine course of action then you could (and we know its possible) convince to do things that any sane of mind person would think is horrendous. I concede that is very difficult to argue with and I certainly can't.

As a counter I will say that the people that mis-use religion make up such a minuscule portion of those exposed to it, that you might be able to say such people could be radicalised by other things too. For the overwhelming majority of people practising religion it encourages them to live a good, honest, peaceful life, doing harm to no-one and respecting the beliefs of others.

There are lots of people in the world who find some much solace in their belief in God that it would be utterly inhumane to tell them they are "crazy" or "should be locked up" when they do no-one any harm and are living their lives peacefully

I've watched my fair share of anti islam speeches and debates. I've also watched a lot of interviews with Muslims acting as apologists for the crimes and barbarism of other Muslims and find their lack of unequivocal condemnation of unspeakable acts to be demoralising.

I've generally steered clear of this thread because I find it hard to articulate a worthwhile view, in a few sentences. It's so complex and multi faceted and heavily influenced by a long historical context embracing, religion and geopolitics.

I do find some hope for the future in addresses like this

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUYcyXTTfHE

if only religion was a private affair. however religion is organised, powerful and split into groups that cannot coexist with each other and groups that resent those that have no faith.

to take christianity and islam.

both have their holy books. the bible acknowledges mohamed but he is not a prophet.

the koran acknowledges jesus but he is not the son of god.

when you claim to be a christian you deny the prophet mohamed and claim that the koran is a lie.

when you claim to be a muslim you deny that  christ is the son of god and claim that the bible is a lie.

athiests manage to insult both religions equally

the two religions are fundamentally incomparable and mutually offensive. this would be a minor triviality if religions were not so powerful. the head of our church is the head of our state, churches are afforded seats in the house of lords, tax breaks, are allowed to segregate their children from children of other faiths in state schools etc etc. worse we downplay the involvement of religion in terrorist atrocities adding the modifier 'so called...' to ISIS. there is nothing 'so callled...' about their faith. they are undeniably a well organised religious powerhouse. thier faith is not tangential, its integral. and guess what, you cant point to passage in the koran that unequivocally states that their violence, intolerance and hatred is un-islamic. you can interpret some passages differently. but there is no clear way of saying 'this behaviour is unnaceptable for a muslim, and here's the passage to prove it...' without someone else pointing to another passage and saying 'yes, but...'

the religious state of mind is morally weak, and it is a problem for all of us now.

it maybe only a minority of musllims who are extremists capable of murder, but there is a  larger proportion that reserve the right not to be insulted - the danish embassies in at least four countries were attacked by mobs offended by cartoons for example.
 -
only a minority of christians are white extremists but until recently the catholic church told people it was a sin to use a condom - and that condoms do not prevent the spread of HIV - and it still views gay sex as a sin. AND it was powerful enough to cover up what amounted to systemic pedophilia and child abuse for, what, decades, centuries?

i dont know the answer but steering the question away from religion isnt the way forward

if these attacks start happening each week
what do people think will happen?
keep beating them with music, change facebook pictures, what

Well, the flood of gibberish doesn't seem to do any good.   

but if these attacks do start every week, which running people down in vans cant really be stopped at the moment, whats the solution?

Ban cars.

Cars aren't the problem it's pedestrians

worth a read

especially after reading some in this thread!

"The express goal of ISIS terror is radicalizing the non-Muslim West against Muslims and Muslims against "the West".

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/islamic-states-goal-eliminating-the-grayzone-of-coexistence-between-muslims-and-the-west/

Whitehall says increase in threats on 'unprecedented scale' - 13 terror plots btw 2013 + March 2017, since then, 8 in 70 days

The washingtonpost seem to have us right...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBgD3ZAXkAAfVO_.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBgJE0AXgAIEZo9.jpg)

not a dry eye in our house....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBgP8KHXkAI7LIK.jpg)

Westminster Bridge this morning: concrete blocks and metal barriers to protect pedestrians.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBiiEt-WAAAt9sA.jpg)

Watched that the other day. I don't think the 2 videos show divided opinions but they come from different perspectives for sure in  the particular addresses we've picked out and I can take both their tickets as being more knowledgeable than my views. Oh man, no idea where it all goes from here.

@teddy.

I definitely am not suggesting that religion is not a massively relevant factor in this "war".  Whatever you think of religion, or Islam these acts are committed in the name of that religion and it's completely relevant, before we stop them we will have to understand that.

What I am saying is that we don't blame Islam, or religion for these terror acts, accept the involvement they have in them, absolutely, but blame them, 100% no.

When people start saying things like "Religion is to blame for all these wars" or "Muslims are the problem" then we have played directly into the hands of the terrorists whilst simultaneously been very unfair to a large number of people who are very good, peaceful people and deserve the fingers pointed at them and their beliefs as much as I do.

We'll put, I agree completely with you

https://www.facebook.com/thetommyrobinson/videos/1027617387374315/

Is there anything in this video that anyone disagrees with?

Yep, they should arrest that extremist ***** in front of the school with the mike.

What

surely theres nothing to disagree with in that link i posted

There is a violent criminal with multiple convictions advocating vigilante justice against men who has been convicted of no offences. 

There is no evidence presented of who lives at that address other than a police car outside. 

Neither you nor Tommy Robinson know the full extent of the measures that have been taken against the unpleasant man that Robinson says he is doorstepping, nor do we know what damage this video has done to those measures. 

I suspect the World would be a better place if people thought for 5 seconds before giving Tommy Robinson and Abu Haleema any publicity.

not think that after what he said on whatever show on channel 4(i havent seen it) he should be locked up

You have a strangely condescending attitude for a man whose statements have been repeatedly pierced throughout the thread.

Thread is incredible.

Gets better by the day.

https://www.facebook.com/skynews/videos/1782799511734638/

I'd hope all of the people that were with him in the video are arrested, probably not though until they actually commit a crime

There is a very interesting video posted on Facecloth from the Britain First Leader, which, if true, and clearly a big if, where he states in a lot of their rallies/counter rallies, he claims to have come face to face with a couple of these bombers/suicide killers on several occasions. He named the people responsible and says they have been following them for quite some time. They were not people no one had ever heard of before, or only known to counter terrorism police, they were openly spreading hate.

These are rallies where the radicals are shouting about the death of the UK etc.

Now we all know that these rallies happen, and if this IS the case, its a pretty damning problem, if these Terrorists are as openly blatant in their hatred and yet still let loose to plot and execute these horrendous acts.

I am sat watching the TV listening to more politicians just talking about defeating extremism, and you just wonder if anyone has the balls for it.

I myself was very taken by the video, and was tempted to share it, but didn't, for fear of all the negative reaction I would get. But at some point no matter how much we have been told to hate these groups, there must be a point where they are correct.

 Makes you think.

Any chance we're getting carried away here? I can think of 34 deaths at the hands of Islamic extremists in the UK since 2005. Between 2005 and 2014 4069 pedestrians were killed in RTA's, I don't have numbers after 2014. Shouldn't we be more concerned about finding a way to ensure people obey speed limits?

I'm not trying to belittle what happened of course, it's tragic and very worrying but we can't lose perspective. The answer virtually never lies at the extremes of our society. Some of the stuff ITT is just wtf.

I think you comment about WTF is correct, mainly comparing RTAs with terrorism......

The two things obviously aren't similar or related. I thought the relative numbers of people killed was a reasonable means to try and bring perspective though. No worries if you don't agree but I don't think what I tried to do was wtf worthy.

leaving aside the ludicrous tommy robinson (i cannot believe he is being espoused in here as a credible commentator, he's a racist, with five criminal convictions)

khurram butt and the like

born in the UK

No criminal record

suspected of being radicalised, been reported by concerned citizens

--

what are we proposing to do?

surely not intern on the off-chance that they "might" do something?

guantanamo bay type solution?

deport? to where? they are British

what is a workable solution here?

I am sorry but all this dancing round is the reason this sort of thing is able to happen in the first place.

If we mark down Hate Marches, as illegal in the first place, we imprison all that attend....thems the rules, you break them you go to prison.

As the death toll increases, doing nothing at the risk of upsetting a few liberal/wishy washy minded folk, wont really bother the majority of decent law abiding citizens.

Whenever people say something like this it is usually always the case that they themselves are being very narrow minded on a subject, you're not really saying people can't expand their minds you're really saying that people who think something different to you are refusing to agree with you...

I watched the video, and found it interesting, he speaks very well and is extremely convincing, he makes some points you cant really help but agree with and provides some evidence that supports his case well. Just like all political propaganda though it is edited and presented in the context you want it in, and the result of his political activism was the creation of an extremist group, using examples presented in an extreme light to encourage people to support and share his beliefs. You cannot ignore the irony in that. In defending the laws of the country he himself committed crimes and that is not irrelevant.

If he is speaking honestly and not just sugar-coating racist beliefs to gain mainstream approval then one thing that he says I completely agree with is his closing statement, "the only way to fix this is to bring each side together" working to integrate young impressionable communities together, young muslims who might be venerable to radicalisation and disillusioned people like Tommy Robinson at age 19, bring them together - show each side they are just people and it's fine to get along, when Jhiadi radicalisation comes knocking the young muslim will say, NO - I'm not fighting against british non muslims because they are my friends.

When i say things like this I'm a do-gooder liberal, but that is EXACTLY what I think. Ignorance is the root of all this, it's a war and we're not unified against the enemies, they are driving holes right through us and groups like EDL do nothing but further this unfortunately. We need to stand strong and say NO ISIS, we refuse to blame Islam, preach all the hate you want we don't share it.

Tommy Robinson is clearly very passionate about his beliefs and I respect that, my beliefs are in civil liberties, millions died for them and I will stand up for them.  I share the frustration that Islamic extremists, hate preachers and active/would be terrorists live here in the UK, and a lot of them claim benefits - the costs of this must be astronomical and the fact this goes on when schools and hospitals are desperate for funding makes my blood boil, as it does so many people.

It's a very common thing to mistake people who think big picture in terms of civil liberties as "politically correct do-gooders" and when you take issues in a vacuum then yes obviously these hate preachers should just be instantly deported, arrested or even killed, but we live in a state where you're innocent until proven guilty, where everyone has the right to human rights and where you can say, think and believe what you want as long as you stay within the laws of the country. When you start to make exceptions to this you set up for serious abuse.

If a lady in the house next to you is stabbed with a kitchen knife, the police come to you and say...You were in last night...You have a kitchen knife...You're under arrest. It's easy to forget when you're coming from a super privileged position as a white british man but these civil rights and liberties protect you everyday as well. The fact the we have these rights and liberties is THE MAIN DIFFERENCE between us and ISIS and it's very important that we remember that. I'm as up for throwing these disgusting hate preachers and jihadi recruiters in the sea as anyone but I refuse to do it at the cost of everything millions of people have died for.

The other thing I dispute is that the police and authorities do nothing, how can that possibly be true? The fury that people who were on a watch list committed a terror attack is really baffling to me, surely you should be miles more annoyed if someone who they had no idea about committed a terror attack?

D.U.C.Y?
 

How is it dancing around?

Stopping hate marches is a good start but you haven't actually answered the questions.

People are saying tommy Robinson isn't credible because he's a criminal, what convictions does he have regarding racism etc that wouldn't make him credible

Not saying he isn't credible. Saying that there is racist rhetoric in his speeches and they are also steeped in extreme political propaganda, I agree he makes some points that are totally valid and really hope his change in political direction from leader of an extremist group opposing extremist groups (L.O.L Irony) to a peaceful, diplomatic representative of UK communities is legit because if it is, I think he could like do a lot of good things and bring people together.

Comparing to RTAs and speed is interesting because if you drive at 34mph on a 30mph road the authorities fall over themselves to smack you up with big fines, educational courses and even ban you from the roads. By comparison this Khuram Butt clown can openly worship the ISIS flag in public, call for our destruction, visit terror websites and associate with known terrorists but like Tighty says...no criminal record, no action taken. Perhaps we should have the same conviction, the same thirst for action to clamp down on people blowing us up as we enjoy a relaxing glass of Chateauneuf-du-pape on a Friday night? So yep, just like motoring, let's take action against the most minor indiscretion. Mr Butt, one of our several million terrorcams flashed you praying in front of the ISIS flag. As such you will be required to attend an educational course at your nearest prison. The course will be residential and will last for one year, it will involve you sewing fabric to make union jacks which we will sell for charity to tourists on London Bridge.

I agree it's an insult for people living in the UK, enjoying the UK benefit system telling UK Police to go to hell etc - it's very easy to just think...if you hate the UK you're free to fuck off and live somewhere else...

tbf the Oxford talk is pretty striking

He uses a lot of clumsy language that makes him sound way worse than he is. Its pretty clear from watching the talk that he isn't bothered about Muslims that aren't engaged in criminal activity

His beef is much more with the police and local services that do little to tackle overt extremism than it is with the wider concept of Islam

Should all police carry guns?

Thoughts?

We should all carry them! ;)

I think suicide bombers would think twice if there was a higher chance of them being shot.

You watched the video?  The police did stop him after he did his ISIS flag stunt and he was on their radar.  So they clearly took some action, though hindsight shows it wasn't enough. 

I'd suggest that Butt is clearly more likely to get pulled over for the ISIS flag stunt than you are for doing 34 in a 30. 

...

eh?

How long would you imprison them for?

Because if they were just angry and wanting to shout a lot before they got imprisoned, they'll almost definitely come out wanting to kill and maim instead.

- so excellent suggestion if you want to increase the terrorist threat

Daniel meet Matthew.


Matthew has done a funny.
 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

whoooooooshed so so hard

wp :D


 ;marks;

In isolation it's fine but when you add a bit of background it's bollocks.

Do you think EDL marches should be banned and anyone attending them should be locked up or deported?

Those marches preach hate so if they can exist why can't the radical Islam marches exist? You can pick and choose which radical group you're going to let have their say.

 ;applause;

I felt this was a pretty important thread on twatter today -


https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568

Very well put.

Everyone thinks its so easy, that security services are hugely failing us...they stop 90% of attacks from an invisible army made up of people who don't care about dying - how on earth do you fight against that?

Good read dat

I watched the whole video. Afterwards I watched the Q&A with Tommy Robinson...really shows a different side to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-UAQAvCCC4

Watching him creates massive mixed feelings in me. There's unarguable truths, I think, in some of what he says.

I would be relatively confident that he is close to articulating a majority view in this country

When someone says something and it's hugely clear they really really believe in what they are saying then it makes then thoroughly convincing and very easy to relate to.

And that's, of course, where I get the mixed feelings though. I can identify with strands of 'truth' but the easy to relate to bit makes me want to double check my own thoughts as, I guess, history is littered with beguiling speakers with a version of truth that led to some pretty bad outcomes.

people who are scared are alot easier to lead than people who are informed.....

Yep, couldn't agree more - this is why I read/watch so much and probably the source of my utter fearlessness in the face of any threat.

That is an interesting point tbf.

We're all statistically at far greater danger from cancer, cigarettes, alcohol, fast food, RTA's etc which is arbitrary and accepted as part of our everyday lives. Terrorism OTOH hijacks the human fear response mainly because of the 24/7 coverage they receive in the aftermath of events.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/many-people-killed-terrorist-attacks-uk/  

Terrorism is only effective if it does in fact instill terror. Us and the media talking about it all the time probably does play a role in sensationalising and doing a large part of the terrorists job for them.

Can't say I agree that comparisons with other ways we die make any kind of useful or interesting analogy or add any kind of perspective at all. If the point is that fear of being attacked is slightly irrational from a probability point of view then I would probably agree.

Comparison with total number of stranger murders in the UK might have some relevance, comparison with death rates inflicted by Islamic extremist groups in other countries might make some sense, comparison with RTAs or fast food murders - in person, I'd just roll my eyes, perhaps wag a finger.

They're not supposed to be analogous, I explained that in my first reply to Adz but I still think they help bring some perspective. People were talking about internment (now the PM has joined in) to respond to a threat that has killed 34 people. Potentially chucking out the most important part of our judicial process. Meanwhile we kill thousands more people by driving irresponsibly and there is a popular Clarksonesque type view that enforcement of speed limits is an infringement of people's freedoms. Anyway feels like an unnecessary distraction now and maybe it wasn't a great point I was making in the firs place anyway.

fk me the cctv footage of the police responding to borough market is so intense.

the speed with which they have to respond is just incredible, they have done an absolutely amazing job. it's so easy to see why people just didn't have a chance.  ;tightend; :'( :o

Not sure if it's true, but significant if it is.

Played golf with an Aussie mate today who said the reason they have so few terrorist issues like this done under is because everyone on their 'watch list' is deported, thus prevention being the cure.

Is this true?

Australia have had a few hostage situations this year alone (one this week). So seems a pretty simplistic generalisation.

https://twitter.com/TRobinsonNewEra/status/872589319873204228

Girls must take a headscare.
Boys must take a baseball bat.

people arrested for 'hate crimes/speech' this week

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yBc-6Lu_B0&feature=youtu.be&t=63
wonder if these people jailed

It is good that a Christian school is open minded enough to allow their kids to visit to a religious building of another religion.   Shame so many people aren't so open-minded.

When visiting someone else's house do you just lay a big turd on the lounge carpet or do you respect your hosts wishes? 

   

No, you can't deport somebody who is an Australin Citizen unless they had a dual passport or similar.

They will also have a legal process too, so there has to be a reason to deport. 

There was talk of them stripping citizenship for those fighting overseas with IS, but as far as I know that can only happen if they have no other passport. 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=were+the+poppy+burners+arrested (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=were+the+poppy+burners+arrested)

i hope the children on the school trip aren't shielded from such things as sharia law
hopefully none of the hate preachers that i see in lots of videos on the school trip attempting to radicalise children

(https://mattcbr.files.wordpress.com/2006/06/four2_1024.jpg)

Was just reading the Dubai thread, had a read about it.
Dancing in public is illegal in the UAE
Kissing in public is illegal
Homosexuality is illegal
Flogging is a punishment for criminal offences such as adultery, premarital sex and alcohol consumption

Can anyone guess the religion of choice in Dubai and whether said religion is compatible in Britain

Dunno m8, maybe ask one of the 200-300k Brits who live there?

Exstream  by name and nature, does raise an excellent point that any good racist discussion should raise, which is these people with radical opinions go to different counties KNOWING(capitals for fact, in this case) that the culture is different and they will see stuff that conflicts with their own beliefs, yet still they come.

However, the rest of the world is forced to obey their laws when visiting/moving to their countries, and therefore do so with relatively few problems.

It's not really a fair playing field. And when people demonstrate this sort of attitude, it's a clear sign they will cause problems and should be forced to leave, as they would do in their country.

I'm sure the religion of peace would allow the equivalent of 'British soldiers die' being screamed by a group of people in Dubai.

Have only got time to write a quick post, but please tell me you at least somewhat see the irony of dishing out patronising moral judgements that the UK itself has never followed?

ISIS have their justifications and it's quite similar to yours. The US/UK/Coalition has killed over a million people in the Middle East over the last 20 years, largely stemming from an invasion which was illegal in the first place. Causing problems.

It's strange how extremists on both sides tend to make similar arguments. The answer obviously lies somewhere in the middle.

what are you talking about muckthenuts!?!?

there is only one extreme, the other side. my side is normal and must be best duhhhhhh  ;kev;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/06/08/saudi-arabia-football-team-fail-line-minutes-silence-honour/

this comes as a surprise

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocracy. Religious minorities do not have the right to practice their religion. Non-Muslim propagation is banned, and conversion from Islam to another religion is punishable by death as apostasy

Islam so compatible

Theresa likes them though and they buy weapons, many strong and stable weapons.


tbf though if you funded terrorist attackers, you wouldn't then feel sorry for the people that you are trying to have attacked.

An Islamic imam has suggested the Saudi Arabian team refused to take part in a minute's silence for the London terror victims because they believe 'it is not a sin for a Muslim to kill a non-believer'.

I'm from one of the "deep Muslim communities like the ones in the North". Care to meet me? Offers open

That's literally why he would offer to meet up   ;frustrated;

Well since you love so much to bunch all Muslims into the same category as these violent minded splinter cells ready to pounce at any time, especially the ones that live in the ghetto no go areas of the North that no white man is ever allowed into, I can give you that access.

Maybe then you'll realise then how far off the mark you really are and you'll actually think twice before sprouting your Katie Hopkinsesque style posts here.

Lol. Wouldn't hold my breath - guessing there's another Youtube video on its way

I think that is pretty offensive to Katie Hopkins to be honest!

Because your a *****?

But but but these were no go areas...how are you still alive??!!

Hummus what's your thoughts on the match between Saudi and Australia?
What about sharia law?

What about the Saudi match? What are you expecting me to say?

Regarding sharia law, Going by your previous comments in the thread it seems highly unlikely I will b able to have any sort on intelligent conversation with you so not getting into it with you.  Your comments have been outright offensive at times and you seem to want to steer the conversation towards your way of thinking only.  One thing I can say is we must follow the law of the land we live in it's that simple. EDIT - the same as any other person in this country

I just asked for your thoughts on what happened.

What have I said that was offensive?
Do you think sharia law has a place in any society or is outdated and things should change?

why aren't you complaining about the DUP ?

You wrote lol when reporting the deaths in the first post and it was downhill from there. 

Missed this gem.  V good

Because they are white, christians linked to Loyalist Terrorists.  They are the good terrorists.

Bit like Sinn Fein really, linked to IRA - white, Christian and Republican. They your good terrorists?

There are differences between the DUP and radicalised Muslims.
When DUP start to impact every day life in western society, I'll be the first to complain.

gentlemanly terrorists.

phoning ahead, always punctual. and christian. and white.

almost british in their good manners...

Glad we cleared that one up.

do you live under a rock?

Lol, I reckon the first mention of DUP on this forum would have been in the last 24 hours.

you're utterly transparent.

Come on, people haven't spoke about DUP in this country until in the last 24 hours because they aren't impacting our lives

wait there while I google to see what bad things DUP have done so I can throw it in your nazi face, filthy RACIST

Well done, you've ruined the thread by throwing words like racist around. Fool.

Yes
That is obviously what ruined the thread!

Agreed, (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB5WTEMUwAAPzCz.jpg:large)
Whilst I discuss Islam, people aren't interested and just want to discuss people(me)

you have top discussion. such viewpoint. much learned many wow.

The word being included within the thread doesn't effect everyone making their own view as to who they consider racist.

I'm struggling with the irony of quoting Eleanor whilst being on the anti human rights/a whole religious group side of this debate

FYP.

You post deliberately incendiary statements clearly rooting for some kind of genocide/ethnic cleansing/the final solution and think the only reason people don't agree with you is because they're too PC :D I'm not even sure you're aware of how deranged you sound. Seek therapy.

Haha. Not quite my favourite gem from Timmy Van Brainbox though:



Maybe you're just gunning for an advert calendar nomination as Blonde's worst ever poster :D

I'm reading that book at the moment, certainly an interesting one

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DB-lKumW0AEPAsI.jpg)

"LGBT against islamophobia" marching against Tommy Robinson is like the Jews marching against the allies

LMAOOOO

You either try to back up your arguments with sources from 2001 or post unsourced allegations of a rabid world domination conspiracy within the Muslim community that you seem to be suggesting has thus far been hushed among 1.8 billion people. I was a little inebriated when I posted but I see no reason to go back on what I said – you aren’t aware of how deranged you sound. If you think you are getting any credibility after this then you are very wrong. 

Faith is a complex thing. Most people of faith make compromises between what it says in a sacred text and what they actually do. Hence, some Muslims might have the occasional beer, or miss mosque once in a while. Even more obvious, most choose not to persecute homosexuals or blow themselves up in the name of Allah. Do you see? But that doesn’t feed into the fear mongering and dehumanising of Islam that white supremacists have been spouting for a while now - attempting to hijack the actions of a tiny minority of Muslims who are fucking crazy to fuel a race war every ugly neo-nazi is desperate to see happen. We should all be concerned when the alt-right has taken it upon themselves to tell us what Muslims are supposed to believe, and the LGBT community has rightfully recognised that.

The LGBT are saying Tommy Robinson is racist.
When is he racist?

Actually no, I've lived in South London for most of my life including periods in some of the rougher parts (Brixton, Streatham), there are plenty of Muslims in these areas so I don't know what you mean. In fact, if I can share my own opinion I will say this - on the whole Muslims tend to be well educated. They’re well represented in universities, the NHS and London’s financial district as well as other important areas making a significant contribution to British society. I agree with you in a small amount of communities that integration could be better. This can happen quickly but you have to give people a chance to get their act together first rather than encouraging the repression of millions of people who (contrary to your ridiculous belief) are usually just trying to provide a good life for themselves and their loved ones rather than take over the planet.

Evening Tommy.

When he draws breath.

...or Stephen, Andrew, or Paul, depending which name he decided to use this week.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

Surely a noble guy such as Tommy (or whatever he's called) wouldn't try and enter the States on a fake passport?

What race has the Jewish man tommy robinson been racist to?

henious crime, how can anybody take any notice of what such a monster has to say for himself?

He isn't jewish?  And what has that got to do with his racism? 

Maybe I'm mistaken, I thought he had said he was Jewish.

What's him listing things wrong about a religion got to do with racism

He claimed to be a Zionist, he was raised Catholic born to Irish Parents.  He's a cock. 

A kid on hard man that couldnt fight his way out a wet paper bag.

He has a camera and mic with him all the time and on the videos I've seen he hasn't threatened people or tried to be hard?

He has a conviction ofr assault and another where he was involved in a fight between hooligans. 

Surely you wouldn't expect him to publish a video where he does attack or threaten people?  That would be madness on his part.

Are you real? 

Exactly.

I think most level headed people take whatever Mr Robinson has to say on various issues and topics with a bag of salt.

Any examples of tommy Robinson being racist?

Does forming and leading the biggest racist group this decade count?

the more he posts the more he could be a Russian bot   :dontask:

He left and CHANGED his ways

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opEM4I_g_Sc

Have you met him mate?  I have, he ran like fuck having tried airing his bile. 

Ah my bad, I take it all back.

Long live Tommy Robinson.

I'm guessing you linked the wrong video, unless you can tell me at what time in that video he's racist lol

I thought he was the hard man

Lloyd or Harry?

Scientology seems a bit daft
Sorry if that makes me racist

He thought he was, just the same way you don't think your a racist arsehole.

It's because of my thoughts on Scientology isn't it
The scientologist race

We are all the same race. 

Racism isn't about race, it is about ethnicity.  Ethnicity goes deeper than just skin colour.

If you only print negative stories about Muslims, then people are going to start thinking you have a mistaken belief that you are superior to Muslims.   

For example you showed a video where Tommy Robinson claimed 87% of grooming is by Muslims, which isn't even close to the truth.  Even after reviewing the video, you failed to spot it.  If you were a bit more balanced, something like that would set alarm bells ringing.  As it fits in line with yours and Tommy's prejudices about Muslims you don't have that little bell thst goes off and say "Hold on, doesn't a lot of grooming go on within families and didn't Jimmy Saville do 500 just by himself?"

Have a good evening.

http://www.pmclauth.com/sentenced/Grooming-Gang-Statistics/Gangs-Jailed

Even if he got the stats wrong, in that video he's debating what he feels is an issue.

Who here has a positive outlook on Scientology? I imagine most people think it's a joke religion, doesn't make them racist. Lots of negative stories everywhere on the internet about them, I hope certain people in this thread battle against that.  Same thing isn't it.

Exstream and Timothy whilst being a bit bonkers do make some valid points.

Criticising islam is not racist, by definition it can't be racist. So better to say that criticising Islam is not bigoted. Scientology is clearly point-and-laugh-at-loud  ridiculous, and merely granting it the dignity of a straight face is asking too much. I would also argue it's a dangerous, harmful cult.

"It is time we admitted that we are not at war with "terrorism". We are at war with Islam. "

" The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam. "

Quotes from an extreme bigot, right?

Wrong, its quotes from hero of the progressive left and one of trumps most erudite ctitics, Sam Harris.

Another quote from him that I feel is even more salient to this debate

"multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists. To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization. "

hitchen, Harris, Dawkins, Bertrand Russell are all writers and thinkers that have criticised Islam. None could be fairly  described as bigotted, all have said things that Tommy Robinson would agree with.

He gets his stats wrong because they feed into his prejudices.  Exactly the same with you and the person who put up that site. 

Asians make up only 10% of sex offenders here.  Even if they were all Muslim that is a long way short of 90%.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/statistics-on-race-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2012 (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/statistics-on-race-and-the-criminal-justice-system-2012)

Whilst there is little doubt, Muslims are massively over-represented in grooming gangs, that is just one part of child sex offences, and even then it isn't 90%.  See https://fullfact.org/news/are-asians-disproportionately-represented-prosecutions-sex-offences/ (https://fullfact.org/news/are-asians-disproportionately-represented-prosecutions-sex-offences/)

Paedophile rings are almost entirely white for example, and as I said Jimmy Saville managed 500 child sex offences on his own.  Part of the reason he got away with it for so long is that people are prejudiced and didn't believe someone like Jimmy Saville would do the things that children said he had done.  When people like Stuart Hall were arrested, many people I know said he can't have done it.  I know people who still think a huge proportion of the Saville victims were just money grabbers.  Find them a possible Muslim perpetrator, I expect the number who give them the benefit of the doubt is close to zero.

People are just way more likely to believe things that are in line with their natural prejudices.  You see it all over twitter from that photoshopped UDA mural that so many people wanted to believe was true, to ridiculous statistics used to put down the other side in the election campaign. 

Get him boys.
He's being racist.

Hope you're preparing for the onslaught for daring to be intolerant of Scientology. Filthy bigot.

i'm pretty intolerant / mocking /  with most religous belief.

where i dont find it patronisingly quaint and risable i find it to be morally weak and dangerous.

ho hum.

i've never been accused of bigotry though.

you dont need made-up nonsense spouted by people like tommy robinson to show up the immoral heart of religion. you can quote actual tracts from religious texts to do that. 

I think this sums the thread up.


No one will change anyone's mind, complete waste of time all round.

https://bnp.org.uk/justice-chelsey-wright/

The supporters of Chelsey Wright who want to see a proper investigation into this case have been called ‘racist’ and ‘far-right’ by the mainstream media (MSM).

It's like this thread.

Her supporters include the BNP, Tommy Robinson, the EDL and C18.  Not sure how you'd describe them. 

It seems the case collapsed as their wasn't sufficient evidence to bring about a prosecution.  I assume you have no more knowledge of the evidence than me.   

Seems nobody cares about the feelings of  the scientologists, outrageous.

Exstream, TimothyVW

I've said like 100 times I understand the point of view that it is [Muslim/b] terrorists and totally accept that Islamic terrorism is  a real problem. The fact that the people who are committed these terror acts are musims is NOT irrelevant - this point seemed totally lost on you guys and I just come across as some do-goody liberal that wants to give terrorists council flats.

Here's my point. Religious extremism is fuelled by hate, hate for different cultures, points of view, beliefs and a total lack of tolerance for people who are different. In the UK we are a very tolerant multi-cultural society and that's great, it's very easy to slip into the same hateful intolerant ways of the people we're fighting against (extreme point, but you get the notion) that really worries. In fact it worries me as much as I worry about a Muslim terrorist killing me, it's very hard to stop a guy walking into a stadium with a bomb and detonating it, it's even harder to stop the spread of fear, anger and hate in the wake of these events, but I really like we gotta try.  Tommy Robinson is a passionate guy but he doesn't really help the situation, this weekend gone his march took 400 police officers to the centre of manchester...huge cost to the taxpayer and what if there had been a terror incident? His motives are likely good but its driven by intolerance and hate, not logic - it's a very dangerous line and so emotive its very hard not to stray across.

TL;dr  -  Muslim Terrorism is huge global threat, I want to see them all as far away from the UK as possible (hopefully in some sort of wooden box) but I don't want to become a guy who hates and fears people from different cultures because they might be terrorists.

The final remnants of you appearing worthy of entering in to a discussion with completely disappeared with this post.

Any last it of doubt that you're a troll completely disappeared when you admitted it yourself.

Sorry, am confused now.  Am I blind because I think you are trolling and you aren't or because I don't think you are trolling and you are?  Or simply because my eyes are no good.

Yes, close the thread, nobody has defended Scientology, racists.

'Islam is dangerous'
'Omg you filthy racist'

'Scientology is bad'
Nobody defends

Worst thread ever

hi mate,do you mind if i ask you a question?

what is your favourite colour?

suppose ill base it on the tshirts i own the most colour of, black mate, why do you ask

what the fuck  are you on about mate?

the correct answer is obviously yellow, everybody knows that. possibly blue but thats debatable.

you quite obviously have not got a clue about the best colours.

black?

worst colour ever.

apologies in advance if i choose to repeat this to you at least once every 3 hours every day for the next week

whats your thoughts on scientology bagel m8

i have huge respect for scientists, all the stuff they do like flying rockets to the moon is truly inspiring.

have no idea why you think they are bad.

What you've done ex, is flown off the handle whenever someone has opposed you in a post, and totally ignored every rational post that actually supports your points (because there have been quite a few) I've had my views altered a little from people's perspectives in this thread but you've been so emotional about it from the offset that you've basically been in your own little thread from start to finish :P

Take a breath, read back a few pages.

And LEAVE SCIENTOLOGY ALONE YOU LUNATIC  ;tightend;

The last count I read had 2300 gods of in all religions, I don't understand why people don't think that tom cruise is primus inter pares.

For sure yeah, and like him or hate him , Tommy Robinson represents the views of quite a large # of people, and saying anyone who supports some of his points are racists would be equally as intolerant as saying that all Muslims are the problem. Quite a big responsibility falls to a person like Tommy Robinson because he actually can make a big difference. He says in 2014 he's turning away from activism and is focusing on dialogue, bringing non-radical british muslims and white british communities together. I can't say for sure but I don't know how much he's actually done that and how much was just hot air...he has a lot of influence


Sort of disagree with this to be honest. Did you ever play that game as a kid where you'd hold your hand so close to someones face without touching whilst saying "not touching can't get annoyed" the EDL should be allowed to march wherever they want but the reality is they know the trouble is causes and I really can't help but feel like they were fine with it. I've seen lots of these videos where they are "peacefully" going about their marches and suffer ill-treatment from some angle, a lot of them seem quite antagonistic to me...also a bit convenient they all get caught on camera...



Possibly true but the driving reason was it was a condition of his parole?

I think he makes points that are valid and the community problems he talks about are legit. The more I see of him though the more raw political propaganda I see and the less genuine desire to make the situation right.

I might be doing him a big mis-justice here... but I feel like it's more he's an activist THAT'S FOUND A CAUSE, than he's being an activist FOR THIS CAUSE. It's tough because when you listen to him he's thoroughly convincing. Whatever his motives I think he's going about it all pretty inefficiently.

Would be interested to hear your replies to this TimVanW.

The irony of Tommy Robinson attending/leading a 'UK against hate' march  :D

Nice bunch of people, great chaps who just want what is best for this country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/edl-sikh-manchester-homeless-abuse-volunteers-feeding-english-defence-league-racist-a7787241.html

When the chance to confrontational is there, people are right in. When the chance to engage is reasonable discussion and swap opinions is there they are no-where to be seen.

What are you basing this on? Not like a friendly Muslim has come and offered to meet up and discuss things

I'm talking about specifically this thread.

I don't know who Douglas Murray is, but I know who Stephen Lennon is and what his views are and what they are motivated by and I know him to be a racist despite trying to hide behind a new persona.  It has nothing to do with grammar.  I never spellcheck or read back much on what I post on here so dont necessarily view anyone elses posts negatively if they are riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes so long as I understand the point being made.

Many of the posts in this thread, yours often, don't make it obvious that they are looking for an exchange of ideas, more just advancing a view. As you allude to, it's the nature of things that most posts, generally, fall into this category rather than becoming a conversation. Also, hard to engage with the repetition  of a single point

You managed to express yourself perfectly well when you accused 1.6 billion people of being supporters of paedophilia.

Was that before he said he was trolling? 

Not hard to understand why nobody bothers talking to the guy who doesn't listen to you, posts only very negative posts about Muslims and has admitted he is only posting to wind people up.  Life is way too short.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40303300

Scientology at it again

You would have though that as thetons they could just fly over the fence

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40322960

Probably just a drunk

You're fvckin riidiculous

lets see if the media call this one a terrorisy attack

#whiteprivilege

.

You're ridiculous
Of course they've called it a terrorist attack
Quit the racism

Drunks quite often get out of their van telling people they just want to kill Muslims...

I said drunk before any further information had been released

This was a very useful and very sensitive and well thought out post.

It will be his last useful, sensitive, thought out post on here .

You're so full of shit, you were clearly trolling

you're no different to all these pricks inciting hatred and the sooner you get banned on here the better - it's only a matter of time

See above post 👍🏼

Would you have rather me guessed the 1.01 alternative.
I read it was someone drunk. He still may have been drunk.
Be quiet you racist fuck spouting white privilege shit

Oh will it now m8

This acct banned.

Keep adding Accounts if you like. You'll get bored before I do.

The crowd that were ploughed into showed great restraint and humanity in the face of such an extreme act. Hard to see upsides in things like this but there was one here

Yeah definitely

Most mature adults can respect the values, opinions and beliefs of others.  However when is there gonna be a line drawn to some of the bile some of these shit rags print, they're just as bad as the likes of Anjem Choudhry to incite hatred and which do nothing but divide.

its ok he wont be creating any more accounts

well this is utterly ridiculously intense, fascinating and upsetting all at the same time


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08w8ktv/hospital-series-2-episode-1


documentary film being made on the day of the Westminster bridge/Borough market attacks at St Marys hospital.  Starting with a daily meeting of the higher ups when all the phones go off......


not easy going but incredible none the less.



footballers wages for the NHS imo.

Thanks for the post ,mean't to post about it but forgot.

Excellent viewing , if a bit gruesome at times.

I don't think anybody does these documentaries as well as the BBC.

They really need to work harder for less money.

https://twitter.com/LaloDagach/status/878275357664841728

I think this video is very similar to this thread.
People defend islam, Scientology is mentioned and the same people defending islam have nothing to say.

Thanks for posting.

Shouldn't have started watching whilst at work!......as you say intense and upsetting.

Immense thanks to the NHS.

Oh man, don't normally watch Hospital type programmes but that was just extraordinary in so many ways. Blubbed my way through 3/4s of it

As all of you will have deduced, that is an exstream view.

Thanks for posting, really good watch

the two french kids and their parents came off so well, Stephen and his wife seemed so lovely too.   :respect:

I love how the end of the episode is just 'another extremely serious stab wound patient' just to bring everyone back down to earth and normality. clean down and get ready for tomorrow everyone  :dontask: ;tightend;

Excellent documentary for sure and all thanks to this great man:

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/57f400af170000f70aac96cc.jpeg)

known unknowns and uknown unknowns as my good pal Donald would often jest