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I really hope it doesn't turn out as deadly as it looks.

Dreadful, hard to resist getting political if you find the Grenfell Tower Block blog that is linked to elsewhere.  I am on phone, so can't link, but there were some prophetic warnings on this.  We should wait for the causes to be found though. 

RIP those involved.  I hope any lessons are learned and acted on very quickly.

Yeah seen someone comment on FB that they had read it might be terrorist related, no idea if true. Looks very serious...

Looks absolutely terrible.

How on earth in this day and age can a residential tower block like this not have the most stringent fire regulations/safety equipment. Especially as it had a major re-fub a couple of years ago.

My business, not far away, is an old building with 4 floors. We can have about 40 people in the building at one time. The London Fire authority on inspecting, quite rightly made us spend thousands on upgrading fire safety when we opened. They inspected,re-inspected and issued strict guidelines and deadlines. Surely even more inspections and enforcement should be operating on these high risk residential tower blocks.

I doubt it.  There was a witness on the radio said it started in a flat opposite his on the 4th floor.  The issue is how fast it spread, which doesn't seem in doubt.

Seems the firefighters were very brave.  Hope they all got out safely too.

Absolutely horrendous.  I couldn't think of anything worse than dying in a fire.

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/grenfell-tower-still-a-fire-risk/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/06/19/rbkcr-cover-up-at-grenfell-tower/

10 million spent. Not a word on safety.

RIP to all those unfortunate not to have made it out alive

Those responsible (local council??) looking at criminal charges surely?

Some measured speculation and pertinent questions in this blog as well:

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-residents-had-predicted-massive-fire/10020757.article

Easier to blame Jonny Foreigner the terrorist than who is actually to blame.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-vote-down-law-requiring-landlords-make-their-homes-fit-for-human-habitation-a6809691.html

I wasn't blaming anyone, it was nothing more than a throw away comment from reading the news for 1 min and FB for 1 min before starting work...

yeh must be Browns.

the person who posted that is a cretin, and you are no better for spouting someone elses speculation.  fake news and bigotry best news.

sitting on fire safety report recommendations is a brilliant cost saver though. great job people in charge!

Bullshit, there is always going to be speculation with big incidents until the cause is know.

Anyway, you are speculating it's 'browns' because I mentioned the word terrorist, that's racist innit?  ;whistle;

lol grow up and don't try and turn it back on me now it's gone past midday and you have to be a twat about things.


just admit yes I made another shit inflammatory post.

Utter bullshit, your the one being a twat and trying to find something where there is nothing to find,

This is the internet - everyone's a twat.

Let's try not to have the same arguments on every single news thread.

Agree, I'm done with it on this thread.  ;tracet;

Well then . . . .

We don't know what the allegations were or whether the individuals named were at fault for the allegations.  It looks terrible, but we have no context for the letter.  Note I have read the blog and referred to it this morning, and heard the ex head of the residents association speak this norning. I obviously have no idea what was changed since 2013 either. 

This emote tells a different story as usual   ;whistle;

It is pretty clear that that vote is irrelevent.  That was an amendment to a private sector housing bill.  This is a social housing block, though it is likely to have some private tennants.  But even then, it would be hard to see how a private landlord could be held responsible for what looks like major flaws in the entire social housing block.  Also they are already protections in place regardless of that amendment and those have clearly failed.  Pretty much zero chance this would have made any difference even if it did apply to social housing.

I would just add that a lot of amendments are going to be thrown out for a whole raft of reasons that won't be that obvious.

Twitter is worse than the tabloids at times like this.  Obviously there is some great information out there, but this isn't part of that.   People should just quit the politics around it right now.  

Everybody speculates when something like this happens. Can you honestly say that at no point no matter how brief that terrorism as a possible cause didn't cross your mind?

First thing I thought when I saw it was along the lines of 'poor bastards'. Immediately following was 'blimey this could be the next terrorist thing.....'. Shortly after, 'nah it's just a fire'.

At no point did the vision of a brown person with a box of matches enter my head though so does that make it okay?

I was asleep so obviously woke up to a more definitive picture.

yes of course many things can cross your mind, but why post something you know to be utterly unfounded just to push it then just say well free speech I can infer what I want even when I am adamant it's baseless. It's not like this is his first post trying to stir stuff up seemingly for entertainment.

I never thought terrorism.  I heard tower block when the Mrs woke me up at 6am this morning and I asked if it was Flats or Commercial premises.  Had she said commercial I might have assumed differently. 

I suppose your first impression depends entirely on what you first see.

The first I saw of the event was a picture on Facebook of a tower block completely engulfed in flames and it was horrific. It's very difficult not to picture twin towers and automatically think terrorism especially given recent events in the UK. Those thoughts disappear quite quickly but they were still there for me no matter how briefly.

If the first knowledge I had of it was my someone telling me there'd been a bad fire in a tower block in London I doubt terrorism would have even entered my mind because there wouldn't have been that strong visual image.

Yr way too sensible for these threads now

how dare anyone have a thought that this may be terrorism
racists

it's also what we're 'trained' to think with all the hype and quick to assume reports/reporting.

You say those thoughts were there briefly, did you not think to quickly message everyone you know and post on forums that 'they' (lol prove what I mean) did it? there is a huge difference in that.


i've just been reading a thread about both the social media reaction farming and the instigators of this and it's very interesting (https://twitter.com/GuardianRover/status/874914107857805312).

cliffs anything that provides an emotional response is perfect fodder for people who wish to destabilise democracies/regions to thrust sides with different views together. it highlights that the 'bot' problem in social media is not limited to one side, nor is it orchestrated by one of 'our sides' it's controlled and targeted by outside means as a way of letting us do the work for them. it's very clever and seemingly very effective.

It is absolutely beyond the realms of possibilty that this could've been a terrorist attack and anybody who suggests otherwise is a RACIST BIGGOT

godallah, calm down titaniumbean

there's only one of us here who will change their opinion of this or other incidents based on facts.

Llloyd and Harry both in at the same time today.

bigot, thats no way to talk about titbean and whoever else

Titty and Doobs are terrible posters, so has to be said.

Capitalising spello's is nearly as bad as flying apostrophe's

 rotflmfao   ;applause;

racis't

don't understand the racism and hatred towards myself and junior

Like having lollazza back all over again and his other mate!  Can't remember his name!

Larry David?

Yes!  I haven't had my occasional hate email from him to my hotmail account for a while.  He usually sends the most comical emails slagging me off once or twice a year totally randomly. 

the sheer ammount of racism and biggg'gotry in this thread is pretty astounding really, you should all be ashamed

Junior91 forgot his log in to the email he used.

Story checks out.  Confirmed.

Absolutely heartbreaking to see some of the videos taken by residents who were trapped inside especially the ones who were above the 19th floor who in all likelihood didn't make it out. Stomach churning stuff

Some of the looks on the faces of the firefighters says it all, they really must be commended for their outstanding bravery and work, all while dealing  with it all understaffed.

Also have to say it's very heartwarming to see everyone pulling together irrespective of race or beliefs.

Going to put the JustGiving link here incase anyone here wants to donate/help but are unsure how to

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/familiesofgrenfelltower

Watching Channel 4 news I understood a family on the "20 something floor "made it out, so hopeful many others did that high up.

Quite incredible 10 million spent on refurb and no central fire alarm or sprinkler system put in. Ok it wasn't compulsory in regulations, but surely that's top of your "moral"  list in any bleeding upgrade on such a building.

Not been able to watch it since I read about a baby being thrown off the 10th floor for someone to catch. Couldnt listen to any more after that, too horrific to bear  :'(

I read somewhere that someone caught the baby, but I'm struggling to comprehend that.

It's a horrific tragedy, & one which should never happen in a modern, civilised country.

It's incredible that I grew up in my teenage years virtually just around the corner from that very block of flats.

Only couple of miles away to the North of Notting-Hill-Gate and I must have gone past that block many dozens of times on the #52 bus en route to my youth club in West Hamstead.

next PM?

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NztIJpTtjiE

Yep, the guys an imbecile. First responders last night will have driven past two recently closed stations to get there, Southwark and Kensington. The destruction of the public sector keeps contributing to deaths.

Southwark?  More bollocks on twitter I assume.  To be a first responder from Southwark to North Kensington wouldn't you need a helicopter?

yeh cant imagine first responders did. but with the scale of the mobilisation those who attended will have driven past most places!



Boris is still a complete cretin that hides behind his character of lovable bumbling idiot, when he's just a conniving idiot desperate for power.

Due to the sheer size of the fire, there is a good chance some firefighters went past Southwark, but the first ones didn't. 

Not getting into a dispute about Boris.

Yeah, it came to me from a colleague whose boyfriend works for LFB. I guess she/they meant pumps/appliances that attended, my error in how I worded it here, it wasn't made totally clear to me by someone whose was v upset when I spoke to them. Seems pretty unnecessary to assume it "bollocks on twitter". We're not really going to say less doctors, less firemen, less police won't mean more deaths are we?

Britain First really are a deplorable 'organisation'.

The whole community is helping out after the awful fire, and what do they do? Turn up to help? Nah, go to the area to film some of their racist bile, then complain that they've been shouted out of town.

Disgusting bunch of people.

In before WinkleVanRobinson spots this.

Took Jake to football training tonight.

Ended up chatting to the dad of one of his friends.

He's been a fireman for over 25 years, and is a crew chief now.

I won't bore you with all the technical stuff he told me about his job, but he said you have to be psychologically immune to what is going on while you are fighting a blaze, almost treat it like a video game, becuase if you get emotionally involved, you'll be a wreck within days.

An awful lot of retired firemen suffer from depression.

Peston nails this paragraph-

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.


369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners

this event now stands for something much more than a tragic incident.

its now becoming about class, and in particular the ruling class, their influence over us and in whose interests they exercise that influence.

are people who are landowners and whose parties lap up donations from millionaire landlords acting for the public good when they legislate building regulations, sit on planning committees, decide the scope of inquiries etc?

who decided that it was ok to go with a more flammable cladding as it was cheaper? in whose interest did they make that decision. what other financial or political motives may have influenced that decision. who benefitted financlially from that decision, what is their relationship to the people who made that decision?

tony benn said we shoud ask five questions of people in power:



its time we started to shake some honest answers from the ruling class and then decide if we like those answers.

that burned out building stands for something. its more than human tragedy. its an insult to the people. the sight of it enrages me.

what the people of that community must feel when they look at it i cant begin to comprehend.

in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all ideas of fairness and equality. Hilary Mantel nailed it with the idea that they're probably lovely people but they themselves must realise the Monarchy is archaic and a relic for the past. Mantel thinks to be fair to them, let them oversee and set a timescale for their own dissolution. I reckon they'd all be better for it too.

I don't agree with you. They are not an affront to my ideas of fairness and equality so that statement can't be correct.

Cool, I fixed my post.

I've not made an argument for yay or nay for them in the future just that this 'oh they suck, xyz spend (but im not considering the gain)" is an unhelpful way of thinking about it. if they were costing just -300m a year they wouldn't still be here!

Given that all they really do is do things for other people and provide a face for the nation (which it turns out sells pretty well) but have very little authority of note I don't see it as an affront in the same way bankers/media/politicians all cozying up together to profit is anywhere near the same.

Those figures are very misleading and likely just flat out wrong if you dig into the detail.

The figure originates from a survey which visit Britain did asking how many people come to Britain for it's heritage and culture. They simply took the % that answered yes to this and applied it to the total tourism revenue in the UK. Obviously all heritage and culture is down to just the monarchy.
Visit Britian actually withdrew this claim shortly after being challenged on it. However this number has still persisted in the wider media.
Republic which is a anti monarchy pressure group specifically asked the tourism board if they could state that the monarchy added to Britiabs tourism and they admitted there was no way to prove this and it was unquantifiable.

If you look at the most visited paid for attractions in the UK windors castle comes in at around 18 below such things as the Romans baths. It could be argued actually without a monarchy tourism would increase as all royal residencies would be opened up to the public.

As for all these associated additions like selling more mugs/plates whatever it may be the numbers as very often just made up and can't really be calculated.

Anecdotally I was a buyer at a major uk retailer and we ran lots of jubilee branded products  during jubliee year. Along with all other major retailers (against my judgement I was overruled by my director).
 All the product lines across every retailer absolutely bombed and we were left with huge amounts of stock (it was our worst peformong dinningware range) which had to be sold at quite a loss. Other retailers including John Lewis where you would have expected it to sell well had the same issues.

For what it's worth tourism to the UK actually went down from the previous year during the jubilee which also supports some evidence that tourism numbers are vastly over estimated.

Of course they add some value in regards to tourism no doubt but it's quite likely vastly overestimated.

yeh this is why I only used the much smaller figure, and noted that it all seems wishy washy, I also read about Republics side but given their first line is we hate the monarchy they pretty much lose all objective credence! either way as in my previous post just using one side of a set of figures is hardly a correct way to judge something and shows your pre-existing bias.

edit I also enjoyed Republics argument that they work for us so anything they spend is them themselves losing money and anything they own or bring in is 'the peoples' therefore they lose money therefore abolish them lol yay our stated goal has been vindicated. they don't follow their logic through to note that surely anything spent is us spending and they expend and bring in nothing thereby breaking even lol not this massive negative figure.

It's also probably worth remembering they were widely hated and getting treated like TM is currently when Diana died. Incredibly it was getting Alastair Campbell running some PR for them that turned things around.

yeh i'm vastly indifferent to them, just don't enjoy the lopsidedness of these sensationalist headlines/thought processes.


Queenie has already done infinitely more than Theresabot has managed. The interview with her is excruciating to watch, she set herself to the pre-programmed squrim out of answering questions PR mode and just said what she wanted to say and didn't even hear the questions. Watching her half run out of the church (whilst shes probably encouraged to by the protection unit because of the crowds and the emotion running high) she just seemed spineless and in congruent with being a strong and stable leader (lol manifesto soundbites).

Lots of love for hearing from Tony Benn, I still think you're probably a nutter but nice job.

i dont want to derial, so will refrain from arguing about tourist income. but i will say that  cleopatra and the egyption pharohs make a lot of money for egypt whilst being dead for a millenia or two. we dont need madge trolloping around to get tourists in.

also regardless of what i feel about theresa may, the fact that she had to ask permission to form a government after recieving a mandate from the people is sickening.

speaking of sicking lets return my ire to the ruling class.

we have a situation here where 100's of people have died due to poor social housing. lets call it what it is. in a rich borough where land and property prices have been chased up out of the reach of ordinary people,  people were stuffed into anachronistic high rise slum accomodation. house prices rises = good though, innit. fuck the kids, fuck the old, fuck the ill.

they warned repeatedly that their housing wasn't only inadequate but also unsafe.

they were ignored.

they were told their building was ugly and the surrounding area would be improved by cladding it in cheap flammible material.

the non flammible version of that material costs £2 per square meter more than the stuff that burns readily.

they were told they would have to make do with the cheap stuff.

we have disabled kids being housed on the 11th floor of these high rise slums. austerity, innit. not enough to be allowing people sponge of Honest Working Families.

no more free lunches for the workshy benefit chasers. so lets put disabled kids up in a tower wrapped in combustable decoration. and we have been told that we should direct our anger at the people below and around us. immigrants, benefit cheats, spongers, asylum seekers, the ill, the disabled, the poor, the young, the old. all draining the system.

the euphemisms pervade every political interview Difficult Decisions. Tough Choices. Austerity

fuck that.

lets turn our ire at the people ruling us.




we tried to solve social housing decades ago. how is it in 2017 we are putting kids up these towers, telling them their home is too ugly for the surrounding bourgeois and then decorating them with cheap flammible materials? how is this ok?

I find it detestable in 21st Century Britain we have an unelected monarchy where birth right elevates you to a life of Riley.  Personally I'd place them against the wall if they wish to continue if they are happy to stand down I am sure they could keep one stately home.

no probably about it today.

i'm massively fired up and in a mood for political agitation.

the capital is a few degree centigrade away from boiling point -  and i mean that literally as well as figuratively. if the temperature ups there could be civil unrest.

we've been hit by some  ruthless terror attacks, and yet poor housing in one of the countries richest wards has killed many more people, many more kids too.

i dont think standing idle is an option. i'd encourage people to take to the streets and take the fight to the door of the people who through patronage, political expediency and financial self-interest have been involved in this outrageous situation.

Did you quit your job and start a militia yet ?

I know this is a political ranting thread at the moment and facts aren't relevant but 10 days ago

Tories 13.7m votes
Labour 12.8m votes

Agreed, it's incredible. We're not there yet, nowhere near but it's biggest step forward since Attlee was running the show.

Facts aren't relevant? lol. I love true things the most, all we need are facts. Which facts should we be focussing on? The result of the GE just means it will be the Conservative Party in minority government that will be run in to the ground and humiliated by Brexit. From a reap what you sow POV, I'm OK with that.

I am not ok with an incompetent Tory govt ruining the country with their incompetent approach to Brexit. TM is demonstrating that she is the worst PM in many years, the tories need to swap leader now, I would prefer Hammond but can't see that happening as he is not enough of f a Brexitier.

It's a difficult spot for sure. My hope is that 2 years of suffering might lead to 20/30 years of improvements. Perhaps, although this is ambitious, a permanent move to a fairer society. In the meantime more important than ever that we look out for each other.

Telegraph have a feature titled full details of people missing

Guardian lead with "more than 70 missing"

People on the ground are estimating 300-500 dead. Food that has been sent to help the displaced is piling up. Just saw an interview with one resident who said they need to sell that food as the people it is intended for are laying dead in the building and that there will be 500 funerals to pay for.

If this is close to being true then it's deplorable.

I would like to see this enquiry be totally independent of whichever government we end up having.
People are very mistrusting at the moment, look how long it took to get to the bottom of hilsbourgh for example.

Some people are clamerring for a criminal investigation instead even.

100% there should be a criminal investigation. It's shameful that nearly £10m was spent on that block yet they couldn't organize quarter of a million to retro fit sprinklers. Money has been misspent/syphoned off left right and Centre, and dozens of people have been alerted to the dangerous and unsafe co fictions in that flat.

Why isn't every flat provided with a fire extinguisher and a few smoke masks? That would cost about £50 a flat and five then some hope of fighting an out of control blaze themselves, or with help of neighbours. Then the smoke masks help them escape.

Some of the survivor stories are horrendous, people will be scarred for life.

even if she dies and isn't replaced we'll have to upkeep the castle or the palace as tourist attractions they are some of Londons biggest. that's still just an investment at the end of the day.




think people who want a specific number of dead right now IM ON SOCIAL MEDIA are pretty ill guided. it's obvious very many are dead and anyone missing is very long shot to be found now. guessing the death toll accurately is pointless. more than 0 died therefore it's awful, each individual one is a bit like ICM they just become a statistic. by demanding someone know how to count cremated bodies in a building that isn't fully accessible is just silly or for us to be informed before their families is just crass.


we should focus on the reasons for why society has got to a point that failings like this is one of those things, and why there is no responsibility for anyone for literally anything anymore. parents have none for their kids, lazy have no responsibility for not working, government have no responsibility for the effects of their decisions. banks have no responsibility to the money owners etc   (only the other day in the US some wankerbanker sits in front of the committee saying repeal dodd frank (the legislation brought in after financial crises to stop them quite literally just being 'too irresponsible' and this guy who gave evidence just before his bank was bailed out saying its all rosy we know banking bro, now sits in front of them again saying no but 'listen' (he keeps saying this because hes a rich man talking to a women about money so he obviously knows more), listen I am in the industry and I know banking your point is valid but its irrelevant we want to gamble and make profits and take no risk now repeal based on zero acceptable logic..... https://twitter.com/SenWarren/status/875808277149372416/video/1  )



we should focus on righting these institutional wrongs not getting bogged down in these death toll figures its a brilliant way to sow discord and just place things in the way of actual change being effected.

Letter from Met Police to residents says "there are grounds for corporate manslaughter charges over the Grenfell Tower."

 under corporate manslaughter legislation, no individuals can be arrested/charged.

A major public inquiry into the deadliest fire in Britain in more than a century opened on Thursday

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/world/europe/uk-grenfell-fire-london.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

How can it possibly take this long to start it.

I am 100% sure that I could have finished it within 3 months!

Bit of grandstanding from Michael Mansfield yesterday, as usual casting himself as the campaigning hero, surely just designed to stir up the crowd and put pressure on the Judge for later advantage.

I'm sure he does a lot of good work, but these kind of antics seem a bit cynical. I guess he knows by now what tactics are effective, though.