blonde poker forum

Hi guys,

A few years ago I used to play live cash/tournaments in the West Midlands when I was a student but was barred for something very stupid (my own fault). I did make a post on 2+2 asking for advice but just got trolled and gave up replying. I'd rather not type out a huge long wall of text right now on why I'm banned but if enough people care to know then I will update later.

I've tried to appeal to reinstatement@rank.com, following their standard procedure but without success. I'm frustrated because while I know casinos ban people every day, I was told they would investigate into what happened and I had a number of credible references (card room managers) who would vouch for me and my behaviour if called upon but no one including myself was ever contacted regarding my suspension. I was thinking maybe if I go to my local casino (Bournemouth) and try to arrange a meeting with the GM then at least I could reason with them in person rather than send emails over and over but receive no reply.

Any advice on what I can do to get unbanned?

grovelling apologies referring to the person/s you offended and asking to make a face to face apology will normally do the trick unless you tried to cheat/fraun then you would have no hope

Unfortunately that is what I'm suspected of, cheating.

I absolutely wasn't and am not a cheat, I did have a couple of card room managers willing to vouch for me and they knew of the incident, but they were never contacted for a reference. I wasn't well known by any means, but I'm those who I played on the tables with would know I was genuinely an honest player.

Is there really no way I can get a shoe in the door of someone who would not throw my case into the bin when looking over the notes on my account if they suspect me of cheating?

casinos don't like cheats and very unlikely no matter who vouches for you that they would let you back in, its not like they are going to lose much money and you are a warning to others
best bet is if you can still get in other casinos use them but often when caught cheating they will let other chains know

you could always change your name by depole and use new name to get in but that a bit extreme

I have seen cheats get back in, but it takes decades, not a couple of years.

I just want to know if there is anyone I can email or write a letter to explain the finer details of the incident to prove I wasn't cheating. Sure, I get that actual cheats should be banned, but although my case looks bad, if they had actually checked cameras etc. they would see that I wasn't.

Well I for one would like to know the full story, and who knows, a Grosvenor GM might be browsing blonde and read it too.

best thing is speak to the GM and manager that as on shift when the incident happened, they are the only ones who will be able to make the decision.

Thanks, I've been in contact with the customer service manager at Bournemouth who has been surprisingly good at relaying things back to me, I might go down and see if I can speak to them in person if they'll allow it

Jackanory time :)

Hi guys

Sorry I didn't reply to this thread sooner. I know I said I'd post my side of the story but I was a little on the fence to write it all up because I wasn't sure anyone could help me or even believe me. I sent the below to Tikay in a private message and he recommended for me to post it here, so here goes..

------------------

Before I begin, I hope everyone can appreciate that while I am representing myself from my point-of-view - I wouldn't be still fighting to have my ban uplifted if I wasn't being 100% genuine. What has happened does appear very far-fetched but this is how events unfolded.

Here is a timeline of events...

Early 2014
I'm a student at Aston Uni, Birmingham. In our poker society, in our weekly home games we are literally playing with cardboard playing cards until one of the students, who worked as a poker dealer at Grosvenor Hill Street, brought an discarded, unpunched deck from the casino. How can we not be overjoyed to have a proper deck of cards? As I attended the home game every week without fail, I took the cards and we used them every week - no harm in this I thought...

June 2014 - Dec 2014
Not much to report.. Finished uni, went home + started to grind live cash at Bournemouth for 5-6 nights a week. I can probably add now that we only had 1-2 tables and had machine card shufflers (you can probably see where this is going by now). I don't have a car at this point so travel by train, 6-7pm I head out, with a rucksack to carry my headphones and rain jacket which is kept downstairs in the reception's cloakroom OFF the gaming floor.

Jan 2015
I had brought my cards to bring to a family home game over the Christmas period and completely forgot to unpack them from my rucksack. I played on Xmas Eve and had an awful session and when I got home (I think on the 2nd or 3rd Jan) I wanted to get straight back on the grind.. so off I went to the casino.

On this particular night I decided to leave my wallet and debit cards in my rucksack. I know I should keep these with me but after my previous session I wanted a reason to step away from the table if I got stacked, nothing malicious here..

I lost my initial buy-in, and downstairs I went to ask for my bag to grab my wallet. Here's where things get dicey..

It was SO busy that it wasn't a receptionist that served me at the desk, it was one of the security men who normally stand by the front doors. I got my wallet out, even waved the debit card at him to gesture "hey I just needed this, sorry to be a nuisance" and went back upstairs. At this point I had no idea the deck of old Grosvenor house cards were in the rucksack. My wallet was in a separate mini compartment at the very front of the bag, and everything else, headphones, jacket and the Grosvenor cards were in the "main" compartment, it is impossible for anyone to have known they were there unless they went looking.

Half an hour later, I get a tap on the shoulder from the suits who ask me to come downstairs and immediately when I'm presented with my bag I know they know. They ask me what's in the bag, I get the cards out for them, and I'm not given any chance to speak with the general/duty manager. The deck was intact, all 52 cards and an old design (and maybe even different colour to the ones used on the night).

I was told there and then that they'd "look into it" and "get back to me" - that was the reason I wouldn't be able to just have a sit down with the manager. I'm sure there would have been questions I could answer regarding where the cards originated from - especially since if the Bournemouth Poker Room had been carrying out audits on the current/discarded decks of cards, they would see that none have gone missing..

No problem I thought, yes I was (excuse my language) knee deep in **** but surely if they checked the cameras and interviewed me, or someone who would have vouched for me (card room manager in Grosvenor Birmingham Hill St) - I would maybe be given a second chance after all.. because I didn't actually cheat or card switch/whatever I'm suspected of. But it looks like they have just blanket banned me..

From Jan 15 onwards I have tried contacting their official reinstatement team (only contactable by email, not telephone and never any names in the almost robotic, generic replies given), twitter (tweeted their ex-MD who asked me to email him but never responded) and got in contact with the manager who'll vouch for me - all without any success. I am really down in the dumps that due to this one error I am now categorised as a cheater in Grosvenor's eyes (and Genting in turn have nationally banned me). Poker is a game where the players have a lot of power and responsibility to keep things honest and within the spirit of the game - pointing out dealer errors, making sure people don't rat hole chips off the cash table etc. and I am 100% one of the good guys in poker - but it just feels terrible that the ones that hold the keys aren't even willing to take my side of the story on board.

Why did the security guard look in your bag after you had gone?

Was just gonna say this, seems pretty irregular

The answer to this is I'm not sure. Everyone who I have told this to has said, the security guard isn't allowed/can't do that - but I can't really argue because at the end of the day, he found those cards. If he found nothing, then I would never know my bag was searched, but when I went downstairs and was presented with my bag - the cards struck my mind - even without saying a word I knew that my bag had been searched while I was upstairs in the card room.

As I said, the cards were in a completely separate compartment to my wallet. I got my bank card out of my wallet and went back upstairs - for some reason he may have thought this was suspicious?

That's very strange, pretty sure he's not allowed to do that but don't know for sure. Best of luck with getting un-banned, seems like an insane situation.

I agree that if he thought something was suspicious, then he could have notified me there and then. I certainly was not behaving in a shady manner, after all I had forgotten I'd left the cards in there.

Whatever he thought he saw - when he went looking, he hit the jackpot and thunderball all in one..

I'm not sure that having an old deck of cards in your backpack is really that bad, if they were in your pocket it's a whole different story. If they're an old deck you can't have nicked them on the day or had any use out of them, all very strange.

Would say to avoid telling anyone your friends name who gave you the cards if he still works there, imagine that could get him in trouble.

I'd definitely be asking the question why the security guard searched your bag. I don't know the rules but I would guess that if they had suspicions about your bag that they should have called you down and asked you to open it for them. They could have put anything in there and framed you for it.

a) Security guard should have been sacked.

b) I can see why they have barred you.  From their POV, you have access to their branded cards which is a huge security risk.

 Casino definitely should have made more of an effort extracting from you the source of the cards. It really is in their best interests to identify that leak and fix it.

That clearly wouldn't be a good thing for your friend if he is still in the biz. I don't really see a happy ending for anyone in this, at best you get re-instated and your friend gets a visit from security and at worst you both get lifetime bans.

Whilst there was no intent, I think you are just going to have to suck this one up as going into a casino with an unmarked deck of theirs just isn't a good thing to do.

I just want to confirm what the OP said earlier today.

He is a player Next Door with several thousand games to his credit, & he posts from time to time on the Forum there.

He sent me the narrative yesterday, hoping I may know someone, or know someone who does, & I first suggested he post the whole story, & them we can go from there. I believe he had done that on 2+2 a while back, &, of course, 2+2 being what it is, he got savaged by the trolls. I assured him that, for the most part, the blondes are not like that.  

He goes by the name of "Ging", (pronounced with a hard G as in "King"), & seems a very genuine guy to me. I believe he is a British born chap of Chinese descent.  

Grosvenor are playing hardball here - he struggles to even talk to them or get a non-generic reply. Grosvenor, of course, may consider they have good reasons.  

I used to have a few high level contacts in Grosvenor, we did a bit of business back in my APAT days, so I'll have to have a look & see if they are still in place.

If any blondes have any worthwhile contacts, I'm sure Ging would appreciate your help.

Anyone know if Russell Tamplin is still at Grosvenor?

Ok to divulge a little

The poker dealer is just someone I know who happened to also be a student at our uni and a poker dealer. He no longer works at Grosvenor or in the casino business and have not had any contact with them since long before this incident occurred

This same person actually tried to "sell/swap" cash chips with me - and said they wouldn't rake my pots in the cash games. I wasn't comfortable and definitely not ok with this. I went and told the card room manager, and they subsequently were let go from employment. They had tried to get several people to take up this deal, so  they do not know I am part of the reason they lost their job (I was assured by the CRM that he wouldn't have my name mentioned...

This is also the reason that the card room manager of that casino is willing to vouch for me - I've helped him in the past and he knows that I'm an honest person and cheating myself would never cross my mind.

Preparing for the backlash for being a grass etc. now...

I hope not.

It may in fact well have some relevance here.
 

Appears so if his LinkedIn is up-to-date.

Thanks for your replay Tikay, without your input I would have just left this thread as it is very disheartening to fight for what seems is a lost cause as I've been barred for 3 years now.

To maybe add a little to the discussion..

Grosvenor told me their reinstatement/security team would conduct a full investigation before giving me the decision to uphold or reinstate my membership

- If they checked the cameras, however far back they keep records - they would never have seen anything suspicious because I was just playing poker just like any other person.
- Automatic card shufflers - They have at least one machine shuffler for the cash games which detects if there's any missing cards - so if there was a scenario where I was cheating - card switching or whatever, what am I supposed to do, switch cards mid hand, then after I show down or win the pot,  switch cards again before the cards go back to the card shuffler?
- Deck design - I'm not 100% on this but I think I had a red deck with the mini cross-hatched design, which were replaced by a "swirly" design. So obviously the cards were discontinued and not in use
- Full deck of 52 cards in the bag, none on the gaming floor or on me in person - surely they would have at least counted the deck before discarding them?
- I'm sure others have seen this as well - Occasionally the dealers go on an empty table and count the decks, then sign them in/out or whatever on a clip board. So there is a record to make sure none go missing. If Bournemouth performed an audit and saw none were missing, they certainly didn't come asking for where they originated from..

This would probably take all of 15 minutes to explain if I could have arranged a meeting with the managers at Bournemouth  but it seems like they won't entertain the idea of it.

Besides the security guard issue, do all of the above seem reasonable arguements for me to put across?

If the style of cards were completely out of use and had been for some time before the incident, you can make the case that they couldn't have been used at all for any nefarious purpose. 

But if the same style were in use anywhere, it is a really bad security lapse for them.  The cards left the casino and could have been tampered with and then re-introduced to the casino.  So that is not good and I can see why they barred you.

I tried to help a friend who was also banned from Grosvenor (The Vic). He was a long standing member but wasn't given a reason and couldn't think why. The reinstatement@rank.com never replied even after several attempts over several months.
However after about a year, he tried going into another Grosvenor and he suddenly found the ban was lifted.
Have you tried going in to the casino and asking them if the ban is still current?

Yes, very recently I went in to try and get the ban lifted and it was a no, apparently the question was asked to all of the managers but who knows if it gets that far..

This is a group wide ban which has extended to Gentings as well (I'm guessing I've been ban-hammered  and placed on a ban list shared between the two companies..).

Thanks for the reply doubleup. I agree a ban of some sorts was not unexpected. 6 months, a year or whatever. I accept that I made a huge mistake. What gets me is that they said they'd conduct an investigation, yet they don't disclose any information on their findings (outside of this incident I had never had any trouble) or even contact me to try and clear up the grey areas or any questions marks there could be.

AFAIK Grosvenor keep a track of which casino I've been in, because you are always asked to sign in at reception.

What's in my rucksack?

A gold Rolex.

Wait! Where is it?

Get the manager right now please mr gorilla.

I think that you need to tackle this by a different route and you probably only have one shot write to the Executive Chairman – Graham Pimlott and outline that you were banned because a security guard had seen an old pack of dealer cards in a rucksack that had been borrowed from your flatmate who worked at the casino.

Do not imply that the security chap deliberately opened the rucksack – you can mention that you helped out the manager at the casino when you found out that your friend was allegedly doing wrong and mention this manager by name also ask him to write a covering letter confirming this.

Desist from telling real people who you know that you are banned as you could find your self-blacklisted from other casinos.

Most Chairman of top companies and I have known loads really have nothing to do so when an opportunity arises for them to get involved in something they normally take the bait.

I speak from some experience as I was once banned from nearly all the nightclubs where I lived (down south) – they brought in some Northern bouncers and unfortunately there was a bit of a fracas – I was young then and in the Army – I wrote to the head honcho explaining what had happened – I had not been drinking – called a southern softie and been obnoxious about my hair cut – outcome ban lifted – ended up working for the firm when I was based in Aldershot for a while.

PS – handwrite the letter and send it so its signed for

Good Luck

Nice idea thank you mikeymike.

I did try to tweet the now ex-MD of Grosvenor Mark Jones.. and he asked me to send him an email which he never replied to (though according to LinkedIn he left Grosvenor a month after this interaction - so any slim chance of help back then is gone). The only problem with this is that my story is already out there in emails to reinstatement@rank.com and Grosvenor Bournemouth. Whether they've read them and paid attention to them or not, wouldn't it harm my appeal if I start telling white lies?

I would strongly suggest no lies, white or otherwise.

This actually doesn't seem like an unreasonable line, them searching your bag without permission is 100% not ok and could land them in all sorts of shit if you're that way inclined.

Definitely wouldn't start lying to them though, the truth here definitely seems more than good enough to get your ban lifted and if you happen to get caught in a lie your whole case is gone, immediately.

I agree, I still appreciate the contribution from mikeymike though about appealing to those higher up and providing a name as well - hopefully Tikay or someone else can get a hold of someone with that sort of power that is willing to listen..

In all seriousness I think there's some info missing ging

- you choose to leave your wallet & visa in an unattended rucksack? Who does that?
- you say it's to step away if ur stacked. What does/did that achieve? Nothing right?
- you feel the need to wave visa at gorilla to justify why you need to access your property?
- your behaviour is such that gorilla is compelled to search thru a customers bag even though it's so busy?

Your behaviour has been deemed suspicious bro and gorilla doesn't draw those conclusions from a customer getting a visa out a wallet...

Haha. We're so cynical..deffo crossed my mind that he was putting the cards back as they hadn't helped much on the first buy in..chortle. sorry ace, just the way I am. If I say 'no offence' then it's ok I think.

In all seriousness why would I go to such lengths to fabricate anything I've said so far or knowingly exclude information besides peoples' names.

1. I don't disagree.. While this is not a good idea because of the chance of theft, there wasn't any cash in my wallet, just some ID and a credit/debit card. If someone stole this, it's still easily reportable to my bank if it goes missing or if someone has peeked and noted down my card details.

2. I'm not immune to tilt. I used to get 500 from the cashier, (max buy in 250 I think?) then if I needed to top up my stack to max buy-in I would be able to without leaving the table. Back then I wasn't patient, I would lose a big hand and then try and jump straight back in to the action - my thought process was that if I had to physically get up and off the gaming floor to get more money - this would give me some time to de-tilt and not spew hundreds more off shortly after.

3. It's not like I waved it right in front of his face and said "hey dum-dum, this is bank card, I go gambol now". It was more subtle than that but difficult to put into writing but I'll try. Given it was so busy, I got my debit card out of my bag and just let him see what it was. I wasn't hiding it from view but I wasn't exactly shoving it in his face either.

4. This is the only one I can't answer with any certainty. I still don't know what caused him to search my bag. I hope this was part of their supposed investigation into the incident

I may be totally out of line here, but is there any possibility that they found or were told about a connection between you and the disgraced/cheating/sacked dealer and were suspicious of you or looking for an excuse to ban you?

No, because when I went forward to the manager in Birmingham he said they would use the info but I wouldn't be mentioned. There were already rumours in the air about said dealer/ already looking to get rid of him but I actually had evidence in writing. I am certain of this much at least.

OK, but that said then, they did know of a connection between you and the dealer and then they did find the cards, right?

I'm not being in the least accusatory here, it just seems like the obvious reason for searching your bag.

So...

Have you been in and asked to speak to the Manager?

Thanks for your replies Red-dog. I'm not sure how to answer so excuse me if I'm not making sense but will write down what I think for you

- They (Birmingham, NOT  Bournemouth) know of my previous connection to that poker dealer
- However, I was honest and came forward with info immediately re: selling cash chips outside of the casino, being offered no rake
- I am told that while they will use my evidence against him, he will not be made aware that said info has come from me
- Now after this incident, that same card room manager is doing his best to get me unbanned, if there was ANY info linking me back to that poker dealer, it would have come from him or his casino, so I don't see how Bournemouth would ever suspect me of anything before this incident that led to me being banned.

Yes and the same scenarios occur

- We're busy now but we will ask the question in our weekly meeting and let you know how that goes
- No we can't sit down with your case report/file and discuss the events of the night
- No the GM/Duty manager on the night will not speak to me right now
- Please go through the official reinstatement procedures (send an email an unmonitored inbox), although I've been told by those in-the-know that the casino where the incident occurs holds the keys to overturn my ban

You only go in at night times?
They may be more responsive in the day?

Also if it means that much to you, I would suggest just taking a book with you and saying 'no problem, I will just sit here and wait until he has 5 minutes free, let him know I am here please' then just sit it out.

Point 2 regarding tilt and a monkey in cash is a total different scenario tho right? If you have no cash only visa you are always gonna physically leave the table. Just trying to understand why going to reception makes all the difference.

I've been at different times of the day, on different nights. AFAIK the late-shift starts at around 8, so I've been in on a weekday the morning - 11ish, afternoon, 3pm and also evenings around 7.30pm where I may catch them on their way in to work). I don't want to majorly piss them off - I just want to be able to speak to the GM/DM and see if we could arrange a short meeting where they would actually take me seriously. 15-30 mins of their time isn't unreasonable for me to appeal my ban given it looks like I'm indefinitely banned for the time being.

I usually go to the casino with my money and swap money for chips at the cashier. The card is only there for back-up if I lose everything I've already brought with me so it is rarely ever needed. If I have cash or chips in my pocket, I don't have to get up at all after being stacked.

In Birmingham, the Poker room is upstairs cashier is downstairs with the other table games. For you it may make no difference between going to the cashier which at Bournemouth is 20 steps away, but for me, having to go downstairs to reception which is off the gaming floor takes more time and I also had the option of going outside for a moment to collect my thoughts or getting my headphones at the same time.

Not suggesting you piss them off, but if you sit there quietly all day waiting then I am pretty sure they will give you 5 mins eventually.

may be cynical here but doesn't seem legit

Point is you only had one initial buy-in, no cash or chips in ur pocket. You simply went and got ur card to get more money, didn't go outside, didn't get ur headphones. So in fact the situation you describe above is quite different to what actually happened. Just trying to get ur story straight before you sit in their reception all day.

The casino will deal with the bent dealer in private if he has already left the firm no action will be taken and he will just get blacklisted in the UK - casinos don't wash their dirty linen in public.

If you have accused the security guard in writing of looking in your rucksack with the intention of pilfering your screwed - even if he was its your word against his and they will take his side.

Basically re reading the thread - you are in my opinion well and truly f*****d - and I can't see much hope of reinstatement ever - so perhaps you should consider moving if you want to play live poker on a regular basis.

I never accused the security guard of pilfering.. Other people are commenting saying re: security guard shouldn't have looked through my bag,  I'm interested in is why did he feel the need to do it but not disputing the action because in reality he struck gold - I'll say again that I was not acting in a suspicious manner and it's nothing too uncommon for someone to leave something in their coat/bag at reception. I wasn't aware the cards were in the bag at the time, until I was called downstairs.

I know it is my word against the security guard's - and I know they will take his side for the motive for conducting a search - but that doesn't change that if they look through the cameras of the gaming floor/reception etc. they wouldn't have seen me acting suspiciously because I wasn't.

Your initial question (point 2) asked what does stepping away from the table achieve and I answered it reasonably enough. Whether I had extra cash/chips in my pocket, why does that matter? I think I lost ~300 and then I needed to reload. I simply described some additional reasoning for what I could have gone downstairs to reception for, because you said you didn't understand why getting off the gaming floor made any difference or not. I get you are cynical but this is nit-picking...

bopkins idea of sitting and waiting is a good one imo, best shot of getting to speak to someone, just sit quietly and wait in the lobby, might be 1,2,3 hours but surely at some point, someone will come see you.

also agree with tikay, 100% honesty even if it paints you poorly. Lie here and you're toasted forever.

You haven't understood my point but it's ok.

Thing is having your visa at reception rather than in your pocket is the very catalyst to your ban, so in fact it's the crux of the matter as opposed to nit-picking.

What's more you introduced your story as "very far-fetched", people who don't immediately accept very far-fetched stories are not in fact cynical mate, just normal.

Hi Nirvana

Sorry I didn't reply to your original post. I find myself repeating pretty much the same things, except under more and more scrutiny so I must have missed your post.

As mentioned they were an old design so they are useless. All 52 cards in a separate compartment of the bag that I didn't access, and they could check the cameras to confirm this and check the hundreds of hours (if they go back that far) on the overhead camera on the poker table to see I just sit there and play poker like any other person.

Oh man, that's way too polite :-) No need to apologise, I'm accustomed to being ignored especially when I'm not making any kind of helpful contribution

The 3rd way - get a solicitor to write to Casinos compliance officer - this will start a legal chain process and you will definitely get a response though you may not like the answer.

Plus it will cost.

Ok so going back to the beginning


Highlighting your question/point, what does it achieve, supposedly nothing - to which I replied


So I may have waffled on a bit but there you go - I implied that when I get stacked I tilt - so keeping my belongings off the gaming floor I have to leave the room, get up and hopefully by the time I'm back I am ready to play poker without tilting away my bankroll.

To which you replied


So yes I lost my money (250, topped up until I lost the other 250 spare so 500). My bank card is in my bag and I decided to keep it there for the reasons I said above - if I managed to lose £500 (2 stacks) then in my opinion I need a break from the table, but with my eagerness to win it back ASAP, I normally would have gone to the cashier, taken out a bag and sat back in, all within a couple of minutes and lose another buy in if I was that badly on tilt.

Do we know if the dealer was allowed to sell the cards (and therefore you allowed to buy them) or do they remain the property of the casino?

I'm not explaining myself very well which is honestly no surprise to me. You speculated the control measure was in place to avoid tilt, you could go outside, take 10mins, grab headphones. All makes perfect sense. Yet you didn't do any of that, you just shot down, got visa and back in the game, so the added value of having visa at reception instead of in pocket is lost on me. The reason I'm putting a focus on this is because your behaviour at this point must have aroused suspicion. That must be as confusing to you as it is to me if you have provided all the info.

As an aside I don't understand why 'things get dicey' because gorilla got the rucksack instead of receptionist? Or having completely forgot about the cards you 'immediately know they know' when they present the rucksack.

One thing I know for sure and that's you were deffo too polite to nirvana.

You think if he was a bit ruder to nirvana he might have a better chance of getting back into grosvenor? Couldn't hurt.

Update: I emailed Henry Birch (CEO) and Ian Burke (Chairman) and got replies from both! They said they would get someone to look into it. Fingers crossed. I hope I get the chance to just speak to someone in management (in person) and have this ban overturned...

Results..


UNBANNED!

Thanks to those who believed my side of the story and offered advice :)

Could not be more pleased for you mate. Will reply to your PM a bit later, busy right now.

Look forward to seeing you at the SPT this weekend. I believe you are bringing along a mate who had a bit of a result this week - Michael Zhang?

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=477977

Thanks Tikay :)

Michael is a good friend of mine, we used to play nightly £20 tournaments in Birmingham when we were both students (just 4 years ago), he was always destined to become a phenomenon in the poker scene. I don't think he'll be there although I could be wrong ! See you at SPT!

Nice one!

Good luck

Congratulations.

Good luck this weekend!

Everyone loves a happy ending.

I love it when you talk dirty.

Congrats! Just out of curiosity did you arrange a meeting with them in person or was it all sorted out via email?

Morning Mr Flip Flop.

Ging may not see your post, as he is not a regular blonde reader, he mainly frequents the Sky Poker forum, so I'll reply, & if he sees it & replies himself, all the better.

The whole thing was done by written communication by Ging & others who supported his claim for reinstatement, & no face to face meet was required.

Since then, I had the pleasure of meeting Ging & Mrs Ging, & I'm sure it was the right decision, as he seems a genuine & honest young man, albeit maybe he made a few little mistakes when he was a young Student, as most of us have. 

The problem in these cases is finding a way to bypass the "generic reply" Department, & finding someone who will genuinely review the case.

That's correct, I didn't have any success via the normal reinstatement procedures, receiving automated responses and after two or three attempts over the years, I began to receive to response at all.

I did arrange a meeting with the new GM at the local casino but I believe the decision to reinstate me had already been made by powers higher up. I did feel it was important to go in and see him though even if it didn't change the outcome, he now comes over and chats to me whenever he is walking across the floor so it is nice that the GM is ok with me being allowed back in.

Thanks Gings/Tikay - and congrats on getting yourself back in!

Hi I’m also barred from Grovesnor casino for no apparent reason . I’m going to try what you’ve done , where do I find their email addresses ?
Thanks

Hi Olleh, welcome to blonde.

AceGing wasn't barred for no apparent reason. He knew why he was barred and so could at least argue his case.

How long have you been barred, what were the circumstances when it happened, did they say anything when it happened, did you ask why at the time or since?

Hi Guys

I would be really interested in getting those two e mail addresses if possible, I couldn't find them when I did a search online but to be fair I didn't know where to start. I sent an email to reinstatement@rank.com and tried to copy them in by guessing their e mails but they bounced back .my guess was theirname@rank.com 
I am trying to be reinstated after being banned in 2004, after trying to get into a Grosvenor in 2015 I was told that I was banned in 2004 and there was no reason for the ban on file. I can honestly say that I have never broken any of their rules but I did use my local Grosvenor as an alibi during a court case in 2004 the security manager was called into court to give evidence which cleared me but as he was an ex police officer I got the feeling that he didn't want to help me.Although I was cleared of that particular offence I was convicted of another during the same trial but I have never heard of a casino banning somebody for previous dubious character traits, in fact I know a number of people with far worse records than mine who are made welcome at Grosvenor casinos

Anyway any help I can get would be greatly appreciated as I am now hoping to take poker more seriously and would like to have access to tournaments like the Goliath and GUKPT tours

Many Thanks

Terry P

Welcome to blonde Terry.

The chances of getting anything resolved via email relating to an incident 14 years ago is slim IMO. Go to your local G, ask when it would be convenient to have a chat with the General Manager and explain your situation.

Hi Longines

Back in 2015 when I tried to get into the G in Leicester square I spoke to the manager, he was very nice about the whole thing but said he couldn't overturn a ban if he didn't know the reason I was banned in the first place, I have since had a telephone conversation with the manager of Luton casino which is my local and the conversation went the same way. I spoke to a player who is a regular at the Vic and he said my best chance was to send an e mail to the team who deal with reinstatements and copy in a couple of the top bosses. I found this thread and infact this site after googling  "overturning a Grosvenor ban "  I have sent the e mail to the reinstatement@rank.com address but would like to follow it up with an e mail to anybody that may be able to help. So if anybody could provide me with the relevant information I would be very grateful

Many thanks

Terry P

The security mgr seems to have pushed the banned button. If the company didn't require a reason to be written down on file (doesn't seem right?) then I think you might to struggle to get them to overturn a ban they are unsure about.

I was kind of hoping it might work the other way
The ban was put in place 14 years ago and there is no reason on file so maybe they would give me the benefit of the doubt and let me back in
after all if I had been caught cheating or been aggressive or abusive to staff or customers that would definitely have been recorded and those are the only reasons I can think of that it would be justifiable to keep somebody banned after 14 years
That's why I would like to get the e mail addresses for the two top guys in the hope that one of them is prepared to help

Terry P

The CEo of Rank is henry.birch@rank.com...but that's a bit too high, you need mgt of Grosvenor.

Martin Pugh is MD of Grosvenor, as far as I can see....but cant find an email, although I would guess it would be like the one above!

 Have you had any reply from reinstatement@rank.com?

When I was helping a friend, we got an acknowledgement....and then several months later, after sending a reminder, we got a rejection. They said he could appeal again, in a few months time. He was then successful !

Hi ripple11

Martin Pugh no longer works for Rank, I got an automated e mail telling me that
Within an hour of e mailing Henry Birch I got an e mail from the reinstatement team lifting my ban
I assume the timing was a coincidence but I am very happy


Terry P

Congrats on getting a good result*

*Unless you knock me out of a tourney in the future ;D

Nice one Terry  ;goodluck;

Thanks Guys

I am really pleased with the result

Good Luck at the tables

Terry P

hello guys

was trying to do some research into my membership problem im having and came across this thread.

I am hoping to be the 3rd success story on here.

have emailed Mr Birch as I saw his email address on an earlier post.


will keep you all updated if I hear anything further. but please cross your fingers and toes for me :)

Hi mate

Good luck with the reinstatement. Last I heard Henry Birch was to leave Grosvenor Casinos although he may still be there for now. Let us know how things progress!

hello

unfortunately for me I have not heard anything back off anyone I have emailed

I am in no better a position than I was before

Its so hard to make any progress in the matter when the people you need to deal with are unco-operative and faceless and respond with generic messages, and that is when they do respond

I feel so helpless
I mean I have tried the suggestions on this thread - no joy
I have tried dealing with the reinstatement team - no joy
I have tried dealing with local casino management - no joy
I have been in touch with the gambling commission - no joy
I have a friend who knows some one who works in the rank group - no joy

I don't know what else to try

Hi.

When why and where were you barred?

hi

I have never been barred or banned.
I have self excluded from various casino's individually, and collectively at different times.

My last self exclusion was collectively using the SENSE program. This was in June 2016. After the non negotiable minimum period of 6 months I set about reinstating my membership at the various casino companies. So time line wise this was from January 2017

Broadway accepted me back immediately, Rainbow casino and DTD too. Genting made me have a meeting with a manager to discuss my gambling and that it was appropriate for me to return. There was some sort of administration work ( talk to senior management) and after about 48hrs they contacted me to say it was all good and I was welcome back. Grosvenor is the only other casino I was a member of that I needed to get reinstated,

As I have done this at least twice before with them specifically I knew the drill. Send them an email and wait for them to get back to you. Both times previously with-in a few weeks I had received a response in the affirmative.
This time after about 3weeks I got a generic refusal.
I challenged their decision.
I can provide more info regarding the actual correspondence but that's the gist of it
This happened a few times over the course of 2017. It has continued into 2018.

Maybe it’s best for you to stay away, given the history isn’t it only a matter of time before you relapse? Aren’t Grosvenor being responsible here?

A three strikes and you're out policy doesn't seem unreasonable when it comes to multiple self exclusions.

Good luck but I think you may be chasing a lost cause.

I dare say a fair few of us have flirted with problem gambling, but I was thinking why did the others let you back so quickly, and not why Grosvenor were so reluctant.

If there is a 6 month minimum, and that is the amount for a first self exclusion, then it shouldn't be the same for a third? 

Maybe they should apply the same 6 month limits to the other kind of problem accounts and take us back so readily too?  Think I have taken my 6 months exclusion with most/all online bookies now.

I can appreciate what the last 2(before doobs) posters are saying, but let me explain myself as we(people) are not all the same

the kind of person I am I can get obsessed about/with something.
so with regards gambling etc if I wanted/needed a break for me it was just easier to self exclude.
that way I wouldn't even think about it.
self abstinence is not everyone's forte so I found this route much easier.

to my mind I was being responsible, I was realising when I was losing my self control and id take action to address it. I thought that's what gambling responsibly is about.

That makes perfect sense, but consider the problem from Grosvenor's perspective. (I'm not flying a flag for them btw).

You said earlier;

"I have self excluded from various casino's individually, and collectively at different times."

This, in itself, raises a warning flag to Gaming Businesses, suggesting you could ("could", not do) have a gambling problem.

The B & M Casino groups all network about these things, so Grosvenor become aware that after multiple self-exclusions, you have re-applied for Membership of at least 5 Casinos. (Broadway, Rainbow, Genting, DTD & Grosvenor).

How do you think that looks to them? It really does look as if you could have a gambling problem.

And the real problem here is that the GC are stamping down hard on RG. If down the line, you develop a problem, Grosvenor would be in really hot water with the GC. It's quite surprising, actually, that the other 4 Casinos re-admitted you so readily.

Also, remember Grosvenor don't WANT to ban you or anyone else - they want & need customers to visit their properties, & use their Online products. Why would a business WANT to ban anyone? They don't, but they are fearful of the new GC RG initiative.

Anyway, look at it another way. Why do you want to be a member of a club or group that does not want you? If a business says my money is not welcome, they sure as hell won't see a penny of it.

Anyway, GL mate.

That makes perfect sense, but consider the problem from Grosvenor's perspective. (I'm not flying a flag for them btw).

You said earlier;

"I have self excluded from various casino's individually, and collectively at different times."
This, in itself, raises a warning flag to Gaming Businesses, suggesting you could ("could", not do) have a gambling problem.
I UNDERSTAND THIS ^^ BUT I REFER TO THE POINT OF I USED SELF EXCLUSION AS A FORM OF CONTROL. ultimately THIS IS WHY THE OTHER CASINO'S LET ME BACK IN AFTER A CHAT. BECAUSE FACE TO FACE AND VERBALLY I WAS ABLE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF AND WHY I DID WHAT I DID

The B & M Casino groups all network about these things, so Grosvenor become aware that after multiple self-exclusions, you have re-applied for Membership of at least 5 Casinos. (Broadway, Rainbow, Genting, DTD & Grosvenor).
THIS POINT IS VERY INNOCENTLY EXPLAINED, im predominantly a poker player. so these casino's are where I play poker at and I wanted to make sure I had the full choice of games and venues available to me

How do you think that looks to them? It really does look as if you could have a gambling problem.
yes I agree with this but lets flip it, how bout they(GROSVENOR) say why are the other 4/5 happy to have John back and we are the only ones saying NO?

And the real problem here is that the GC are stamping down hard on RG. If down the line, you develop a problem, Grosvenor would be in really hot water with the GC. It's quite surprising, actually, that the other 4 Casinos re-admitted you so readily.

Also, remember Grosvenor don't WANT to ban you or anyone else - they want & need customers to visit their properties, & use their Online products. Why would a business WANT to ban anyone? They don't, but they are fearful of the new GC RG initiative.

Anyway, look at it another way. Why do you want to be a member of a club or group that does not want you? If a business says my money is not welcome, they sure as hell won't see a penny of it.
TYPICALLLY ID AGREE BUT GROSVENOR OFFER SOME GOOD TOURNAMENTS, 25/25 AND GOLIATH AS PRIME EXAMPLES. so im willing to not get too principled on them not wanting my business

Anyway, GL mate. thank you, I think im gonna need a lot of luck to resolve this

This reminds me of Groucho Marx. He once sent a wire to his club saying

"PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".

I think the point you are missing is that even if you self exclude as a form of self control, it is an alarm bell for the casino, multiple self exclusions and you are telling them the only way you can control yourself is to self exclude.

If that is true you shouldn't be in a casino.

I would suggest that if you get an answer to your question from Grosvenor it will be that they are doing their job correctly and the others are not.

That is certainly how it looks from here.

You expressed my view better than I did.

This is exactly why Grosvenor are not playing ball, & it quite surprises that the other 4 so readily re-admitted him given the evidence.

 

thank you for all your points of view

With all due respect, it's not a form of self-control.  It's using the 'nuclear option' available to prevent you from having to exercise self-control, which looks very much to outsiders like ourselves as though there's some sort of issue in you being able to apply self-control without it.  Essentially, you're using an option that's intended to be a permanent measure as some sort of on/off switch for which it was never intended.  As others have expressed, based on reading this thread, the bigger surprise to me is that the other chains have allowed you to return, rather than Grosvenor not allowing you to do so, as yet.

Regardless of the outcome with Grosvenor I would strongly suggest not repeating this methodology with the other chains again unless you intend for them to be permanent exclusions, as I suspect you're ultimately going to have similar issues across the board.

Essentially, you're using an option that's intended to be a permanent measure as some sort of on/off switch for which it was never intended. 

id argue against this. The only stipulation imho when you take out self exclusion is that its non negotiable for the period chosen and the minimum time period is 6months.



As others have expressed, based on reading this thread, the bigger surprise to me is that the other chains have allowed you to return, rather than Grosvenor not allowing you to do so, as yet.

Why is this surprising given I have explained that it was something I used flippantly? I didn't think it was a big deal. These other casino's know me personally, they accepted what I said and were prepared to give me the benefit of doubt in terms of judging me historically.
Iv been Gambling in casino's since I was 16. I had a marker at a casino when I was 16. A marker for those who don't know is a credit facility whereby the casino would lend me money to gamble with if I had run out of cash etc on the night. I used to self exclude even then when I wanted a break.
I don't know when exactly RG became so prominent here in the UK but it is probably in the last about 5yrs or so... times change. I didn't change fast enough.
30yrs ago many people would drink and drive. It wasn't legal but it was just what everyone did. In the present its seriously frowned upon. So before when I used to self exclude ( cause im being judged for my history of self excluding) it wasn't a big deal. Now it is and then you look at my history and it looks worse that it is in reality cause most of those self exclusions where during a a time frame when self excluding wasn't a big deal.

Regardless of the outcome with Grosvenor I would strongly suggest not repeating this methodology with the other chains again unless you intend for them to be permanent exclusions, as I suspect you're ultimately going to have similar issues across the board.
AMEN

"Why is this surprising given I have explained that it was something I used flippantly?"

Because if you WERE a problem gambler (& I am not saying you were) that's exactly what you would say to a Casino.

Also, you were in Casinos at 16 years of age? I never even knew that was legal, I thought the minimum age was 18.

And you were using credit to gamble at 16......?

I mean, really, I've got no axe to grind with you mate, but there are a whole lot of red flags here which would suggest to a Gaming Group that they may fall foul of the RG regs if they re-admit you.

So yes, as this story unfolds, I'm even more surprised the other Casinos re-admitted you so readily.

If I were in your shoes right now, I'd lie low & be content that some casinos have let you back in. 

I feel like people are seeing what they want to and I feel like I am defending myself which was not the kind of support I was looking for

I grew up in a different country and im obviously a product of my environment.
Self excluding was not something I considered serious or severe. It was just an option I used to take a break when I felt I needed it. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO READ INTO IT.
I have been open and honest about the good and the bad.
I am not a problem gambler. I am a gambler.

In one of my emails to Grosvenor I tried to explain that they are accomplishing nothing by not allowing me back, nothing except limiting my options of where and which POKER tournaments I can play.
If I was a problem gambler I could get my fix of anything POKER/SLOTS/ROULLETTE/BLACKJACK at any of the other casinos I am allowed in. I could do my bollocks 24hrs a day 7 days a week if I wanted to.

SO TO SUM UP.... I made a mistake self excluding so many times. I did it without realising the full implications beyond the minimum 6month period that it would be valid for or how it would look to anyone else looking at it through the eyes of RG. Is this the kind of mistake that I deserve to be denied membership for an indefinite period ??

You are getting hold of the wrong end of the stick here, mate.

What I & others are doing is telling you the probable reason that Grosvenor won't re-admit you. We are not on their side, nor are we criticising you, we are just explaining why Grosvenor have made the decision they have.

"...In one of my emails to Grosvenor I tried to explain that they are accomplishing nothing by not allowing me back, nothing except limiting my options of where and which POKER tournaments I can play. ...."

The worth of a poker player to a Gaming Group is of extremely limited value in itself. They want you for House Games, not poker. Set against the potential fine they face from the GC for re-admitting a player who - on the face of it - is demonstrating a whole bunch of red flags, you are a potential liability to Grosvenor.


"I am defending myself which was not the kind of support I was looking for"

Nobody here is attacking you, you asked some questions & got the correct answers. We (certainly me) are not attacking you mate & don't have a problem with you.

You keep saying stuff that is very damaging though.

You had credit from Casinos at 16 years of age?

I mean, that's GG you right there in today's super sensitive RG environment.

What you seem to have missed is the whole change in approach to RG from the Gaming Industry - not because they wanted to, but because the GC forced them to, with a whole series of massive fines. In 2018 alone, the major Gaming businesses have faced fines of £8 million, £6 million, several at £2 million, £1 million & £600,000 for what were deemed lax controls of problem gambling.

Why should they risk those sort of fines for a poker player? THAT is why they are denying you re-admission.

Nobody here is attacking you, just trying to help you understand.

Don’t you need to explain why you self excluded? It would never occur to almost anyone to do that, unless they had a gambling problem. I’d just do something else.

Your mistakes far surpass self excluding many times, in fact, that is the only good decision you have made when it comes to casinos. Stay away from them, they have already caused you and others around you far too much grief and heartache.

dickhead post ^^^

like you know me well enough to make such a sweeping comment. don't get personal with me or you will get it straight back.

 ;popcorn; ;popcorn;

Ok I apologise. I refuse to defend myself if I think I know better, nor that I believe I know you well enough to make such a decision.

Good luck.

One thing you probably aren't seeing in all this is the casino's perspective, Responsible gambling is a huge nuisance to the majortiy of us, having to answer questions to Bet365 like "DO you ever gamble to get away from problems at work?" when all you wanna do is stick an acca on the footy. Trust me, having worked with various regulatory bodies this is not something the casinos or betting sites want to do, they want you in there un-halted gambling away.

The problem is, this RG stuff is not a joke, and it's there for 1 reason and 1 reason only (and not because any casino gives a fuck about protecting you) and that reason is if they don't co-operate fully at all times and be evidently taking all possible measures to restrict problem gamblers from gambling with them...then the consequences for them are brutally severe. Fines into the tens of millions and they could even lose their license.

So put yourself in the position of a Grosvenor decision maker, looks at your history, multiple self exlclusions + evidently some compulsive personality traits (no disrespect, this is how customers are looked at from a RG perspective) the downside to allowing you back in is actually huge - if you were to develop a problem gambling habbit and lose money you weren't able to (and again, I'm just looking blankly at it, with no knowledge or your current mental state or financial means) this could be a huge huge problem for grosvenor, this is the sort of story the Daily Mail would go wild on and it could end up costing 8 figures + some horrific PR. To them, as business people the downsides of your membership would far, far outweigh the upsides and therefore were I in Grosvenor's shoes I also would never take the risks of allowing you back as a member.

I understand you wanted a more supportive "Grosvenor are bastards why can't they just speak to you and see you're not a problem gambler" kind of response, but unfortunately I believe how i have described it will be EXACTLY how they are viewing your case and for this reason my best advice would be forgot Grosveor for now, maybe you could periodically have another attempt to be re-instated at various points throughout the next 10 yrs and see what happens but honestly, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Also - you shouldn't respond to Scrote like that, you might think his post patronising or whatever but you posted publically asking for help and opinions and even if you disagree with his post reacting like that is quite out of line I believe, in fact it is the single biggest piece of evidence I have seen in this thread to suggest your gambling problems might run a little deeper than you realise, as one thing all people with deeply placed gambling issues categorically respond badly too is suggestions they are not in control of their gambling. Again I have no idea about you I'm making a blanket statement. I would happily accept though that you are just frustrated with Grosvenor hence your aggression in this instance.

That's a terrific post by the Little Man.

More & more it remains a mystery why & how Compliance at the other 4 Casinos/Groups allowed him back in - though we are all basing our views only on the basis of the info on this thread.

TBF to him/the casinos, 1 self exclusion, followed by an interview with a manager after the exclusion period seems fine. They can show they honoured the minimum 6 month period, took some steps to see he was not problem gambling etc then i think would be fine to let back in, Grosvenor themselves allowed the self exclusion to be removed twice.

3 Times though i dont think they could reasonably allow anyone back in.

Very much agree with this and would make the same call.

It's a while since i worked in the gambling industry (more online than offline), but back then I would struggle to get my point across sometimes about making decisions where the company would potentially lose out due to what i thought was a clearcut RG risk. I'm glad to have seen this slowly changing from afar, even if it's more about being forced by risk of repercussions rather than any sense of doing the right thing.

Maybe you've just fallen victim of the changing landscape unfairly here, but i reckon you should be lowering your expectations somewhat on getting reinstated.

Given some of the 7 figure fines handing out to online companiiees in recent years for bad corporate behaviour RG wise i wouldn't be touching your membership with a bargepole as a casino with your previous form. 

Judging by the majority of responses ( GC ) I have received since I asked for help I can understand why my situation is as it is.

Me saying that you guys have probably got it right in terms of understanding Grosvenor's position does not mean I agree but as you share opinion I am failing in getting my point across to you as I am to them.
That and also MAYBE you both( G and GC ) don't believe me.

Wanting or taking a break from gambling does not mean you have a problem. Maybe you realise or feel like you are on a losing streak and you want to reset.
Maybe you have some financial obligations like a wedding or holiday and you need to prioritise your finances which means putting a hobby or pastime on the back burner. 
This is normal.

Lets take a moment to go off topic and talk about smoking and smokers as an example to try make a point.
I and im sure you might (at least a few of you ) have known a few ppl over the years try to quit smoking. Not every quitter but I know and have heard of a few people who kept and made sure they had a box of cigs in their home. This might seem weird for someone trying to quit something to have what they are trying to quit so easily accessible but just having it there, and knowing if they really wanted a cig they could, this helped them mentally get through quitting. Other people just decide I want to stop and boom, Cold turkey they just stop.

I am one of the cig box in the house people metaphorically speaking.
When I wanted a break I quit. To make sure I quit for a long enough time period that I wanted, in other words no changing my mind next week or next month I used to self exclude knowing full well that for the next 6months I would not be allowed in the casino. Any casino. Its PEACE OF MIND. I don't have to argue with myself, say no to myself, debate with myself, nothing. Its done. Iv signed a piece of paper and for 6 months its time to try some new hobbies.

Is there anything wrong with anything I have said ^^^^^ ?

The main point of this post is to get one message across. To explain why I would self exclude. If we can get past this point then we can move on to self exclusion frequency

Think I need to self exclude from the curry house, so I can save for Vegas next year.

Mate, I self exclude myself from the casinos all the time when I can’t afford it or when I’ve been a dick and gamble more than I can afford. I go back on the odd occasion when I can, the difference with my self exclusion is I do it myself and simply don’t go to the casinos without asking them to block me going in.

If you really didn’t have a gambling problem you could do the same, the fact you have had to get the casinos to block you suggests you do, the only thing that’s surprising here is that you have some casino’s willing to let you back in.

Bold part is the key area you are missing.  What you actually think and do doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the casino's decision.

I completely accept your rationale for using self-exclusion. Honestly, I do. I don't know you from Adam, but I'm fully prepared to accept your word on this. I know you'll believe me, even though you don't know me from Adam. So, now that we've put that to bed....

The problem is that you used self-exclusion multiple times without thinking about the implications. Several other posters have made this point, and it's the one that you still seem to be struggling to accept - that from Grosvenor's (and you should count yourself lucky that it's only them) POV, you're flying a huge red flag.

I suspect that none of us that have posted on this thread actually know you irl, so you couldn't really find a more objective audience. So there isn't anything personal about the responses (apart from one exasperated post, perhaps), and you DO seem to be taking it personally.

I'm not really sure that your cigarette analogy is comparable.  The equivalent situation would be if you'd asked every retailer in the country to stop selling you cigarettes, and then asked them to start selling again at a later date.

Having cigarettes available in the house and choosing whether or not to use them is something entirely within your own control, rather than where you've asked for a 3rd party to intervene to prevent you from doing so.

I work for a company that was audited by the GC earlier this year. All operators are. 

the landscape has become much tougher, responsible gambling is a huge focus and fines levied across the industry have run into seven figures

Not only is it entirely the correct decision to not overturn a ban, I am convinced that if any of those that have yet you back saw this thread they would re-instate the ban immediately. As i work for one, know who you are and know this information, it is causing me a problem!

Just from a risk reward perspective their revenue from you might be hundred or thousands who knows how much you might lose, but the potential fine and business impact if they are wrong and subsequent problems you face are down to problem gambling and its discovered on their next audit, the fine will far far outweigh that

As everyone is saying, self exclusions and responsible gambling initiatives are not designed to provide short term panaceas for whatever problems an individual is facing, hence they are usually long term.

Multiple use of self-exclusions is as it should be, one of the biggest red flags of them all

Feels like we're going in circles. I think we all understand your point of view. You thought using self exclusion multiple times was a measured and appropriate mechanism to control your gambling. You think it demonstrates a very small likelihood you are, or will become, a problem gambler.

Have I understood correctly?

I play live cash twice a week in the big brand UK casinos and have been asked to prove 'proof of funds' to play.  When you say 'your cashdesk at the end of every session' is where i get my funds to play the managers look at you gone out. Most managers in casinos don't understand that there are people in casinos making a living/semi living.  One of them asking me what my job is and i said 'professional gambler/sports bettor' and she genuinely thought i was taking the piss and asked me what i really do.

Most managers have to tick all these GC/RG rules and don't understand the industry/game itself.  I know several people who have been barred for not proving proof of income when they play at relatively low stakes and have been casino regs for years.  I have never seen so many 'non lifer casino' types managing casinos as now.  So many just don't understand the game and this makes it even harder getting around these rules if you don't have a squeaky clean previous record.

These firms are literally taking as little a risk as possible right now across the board understandably because of the fines they know are coming their way potentially from the GC.

a friend of mine works for a big london casino relatively high up, he's told me stories about Arab tourists whove bern coming and losing £1m a yr for a decade they have had to restrict duevto proof of funds issues. If it was your own casino you'd do anything you could to keep this customer, but its not - its big chains with 9figure businesses to protect and layers of management who dont massively get the gaming industry but they know if they get it wrong on these issues they could easily lose thier job.

@shmiegle - i think the point you are missing from the majority of the replies is that if we (me grisvenor etc) 'believe' you or not is totally irrelevant to your situation. I can actually perfectly understand what you're saying and find the idea of you being easily able to reinstate at Grosvenor with little/no risk to yourself totally plausible...after all you're a member at other casinos and certainly don't seem to be triple mortgaging your house to gamble....

The thing is its actually nothing to do with that thier decision, you could prove beyond 0.1% doubt you dont have a problem with gambling and they still probably wont let you in. Like i said before you are just not worth the risk- uncapped downside pretty much after ypu self excluded twice... that's just a company perspective too - not even your biggest hurdle, put yourself in the shoes of the guy making this call to reinstate you, some thing goes wrong and thus blows up he's 100% gettimg sacked. Why risk it, your business is kind of irrevelent to the grand scheme of things.

Again none of this is personal, none of this is saying its fair, certainly none of this is suggesting you have a gambling problem. This is just facts of the case, I think your days at Grosvenor are probably over, unless you can find someone VERY high up happy to make a call like this, if you convince that person you've got no problem then you probably have a good shot. Middle-level or local level management though i honestly think you arw drawing close to dead.

Too many lovely posts now and he still isn't getting it!!

It is 100% obvious from this thread and your posts;

Shmeigle you have a gambling problem.

Forget getting back in to the casinos, ask to be permenantly barred from the rest and head on over to GA please, do not pass go.

Thx

yes is my answer.

thank you for the inside information tidbit.
iv heard of this POF situation and I guess there reaches a level of gambling where questions will get asked and checks carried out for money laundering etc

Im not sure which is the company you presently work for but out of the 4 I visit, 2 accepted me back ONLY after having discussions with me. So id argue that they have done their due diligence, furthermore in the 20months since I have been back on the scene there is not nor has there been any need for concern about my gambling. I do not have a gambling problem.

O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion

well that wasn't really the main part of my post lol and the source of funds issues start at WAY smaller amounts than the level i mentioned.

broke my new rule about internet forums here and reminded myself why i have it.

best of luck on your reinstatement quest.

What are your chances of being reinstated from Grosvenor if you get caught stealing a £100 chip off your mate while playing roulette? Just asking like.

Asking for a friend, presumably?

Think it has to be 'mutually agreed'.

Would it not be in order to have a set format for the odd time that a member of a casino falls foul of the rules or even takes something that is not theres where by if the party out of pocket is prepared to put it down to a one of lapse of good conduct ,possible aided by too much alcohol sold to them by the casino and if a petition to reinstate the former casino member had other members calling for the reinstatement as they are prepared to give the member another chance....

how many members would sign to give a fellow player a chance.
i would

reinstate the luton one..

If you've been barred Tom, can I get any free meal and drink tokens you have ?

As you would expect, the topic of Will who Talksalot came up at various tables the other night. I suggested that unless we were actually present we should probably cut him a bit of slack, since he was being branded a serious scumbag by a couple of people. I pointed out that drink (and possibly other substances) might have been an influence. Well, f**k me if it wasn't Willie Tann calling me out for trying to justify his actions.

I mentioned glass houses & stones, and all went quiet.

 :D

You just don’t steal people’s money!  Or at all to be honest. Stealing from friends is the nut low. Not a fan of blame it on the achoal. He is a grown man and knew what he was doing. Unfortunately things like this happen all the time in one shape or form. Greed and jealously are key motivators.

Regardless it’s national poker news because of who it is rather than what he has done.

Regarding my relationship with Will, all this really does is mean I wiould just keep a more vigalaint eye out and count my chips before heading to the bathroom.

STRAW POLL
There are loads of reasons to not let a offender back into premises where they have broken rules and there can be a equal amount of reasons to consider and decide to allow the person to re apply and be accepted ..
Is the person in question a asset to the poker community and could there being allowed back in (assuming they want it) act as a living advert to say ...yes he screwed up but we the poker community are not going to punish him totally disproportionately .

So how can players influence the casino to allow him in ,i do not know so as a member of the luton club i can ask the luton managers what is the appeals process that  the decision makers may be influenced by , but i am just one voice as a straw poll how many readers want him to have his casino member ship reconsidered ..

I will start by saying ...yes let him back into the casino...

Why is Will as Asset Tom?

If you steal from Sainsbury’s you will be banned. They have the right to protect their stock. The casino has a duty of care for its other customers. It’s far too soon to be thinking it is unfair that he is banned. I do think he should be allowed back in one day. Just not now. I don’t think that is an over the top reaction.

this

I'll go one further and say if you are caught stealing in a casino you should never be allowed back in.

This.  Why would a few months 'off' change the fact the guy is still a thief and still an unnecessary risk to their other customers?

They accept convicted fraudsters and murderers on their premises.
I often sit next to grimmers who have stolen thoussands and tens of thousands.  They have seemed happy enough to protect those people by offering anonymity.  It seems Kassouf wouldn't be very high up the scale of bad folks that still get let in casinos.  Dare say he gets back in fairly soon.  Maybe we'll be looking forward to seeing another anon. on the prize lists?

I haven't been following the whole thing since day 1, but it seemed that those he stole off may have been pretty gruntled about the whole thing, but didn't want to see him lose his sponsorship.  Those people should have the best view of the seriousness of the situation. Has anything further come out first hand?

I strongly suspect he has been punished more than enough, as not only does he lose his poker career, he is going to struggle to find a job using his law degree too.   

He always seems to take great pleasure in belittling other other players and generally making them feel uncomfortable. Couple this with stealing and I struggle to see him as an asset.

I'll agree with this, imagine if everyone at every poker table behaved like him. Now I'm not a fan of the hoodies and headphones silent treatment stuff, but it's got to be preferable to having an aim of annoying and upsetting the whole table each time you sit down.

When something like this happens it always begs the question of "has this happened before". I have been drunk many a time have been in positions to take advantage of others in similar conditions, as I'm sure most of us have. Never once has it seriously crossed my mind to steal my friends' money, in the same way as it's never crossed my mind to stab someone or spike their drink. Drinking alcohol doesn't completely change your character, I mean the guy is/was a lawyer ffs, you'd expect that to denote a reasonable level of intelligence and responsibility. And if it really does have that much of an affect on you then surely, as a professional sponsored player, you have to have the sense to not get that drunk in what is essentially your place of work.

I was never a Kassouf fan but did not expect him to join this list. What a tit.

Just to be clear about this, I wasn't actually trying to justify his actions. I was suggesting that unless we were actually present we shouldn't be calling him the scum of the earth, since there may be more than meets the eye. I know Will largely as an acquaintance, and despite his questionable table antics (that's correct, I don't approve of 50% of it which could be classified as disrespectful & belittling), away from the tables he was never less than friendly, approachable and pretty down to earth. So maybe I do feel a little compelled to defend him against the harsher critics.

And whilst stealing money from friends is reprehensible, there are several people who still frequent Luton G whose offences are far more despicable, and yet they're not banned. RX anyone?

Been pondering this issue of stealing from friends for awhile today, and your categorisation as "nut low" has made me think of more subtle ways that people steal from friends, in ways that the friends either accept or choose to ignore. How about the bloke in the group who always goes to the loos when it's his round; or waits till the very last round when maybe not everyone will want a drink? What about the people you go out for a meal with who always order the most expensive meals and drink like fish, since they know that the bill will be split? And then there's the friends who always forget to pay back the money that you lend them - perhaps just hoping you'll forget to ask - or simply forget? You might brush this off and say something such as "Oh, my mates would never do any of this intentionally." Really?

I'm not justifying WK's actions, I'm just saying that there's a lot of people in glass houses.

Is he a qualified lawyer?  Does anyone actually know 100% first hand that he is?  Everything about him and his behaviour over a decade makes it hard to believe he is a lawyer for me and several others i have spoke to about this in the game.

I'm certain that's what he did before his poker career kicked off, but can't prove it. Bunch of the pages related to him have gone, so they're not going to help.

Will is a qualified lawyer I can confirm that 100%

Saying other people have done worse isn't an argument as to why he should be punished less, just raises the question as to why they havent been punished more.

It's obviously a commercial decision for the casino.

If it was up to me no one who had ever been caught doing anything shady would be allowed back in, as just because it is the first time they have been caught doesn't mean its the first time they have done it.

And also a requirement for Licensed Casinos to comply fully with GC requirements that they maintain a safe environment.

Incidentally, I saw reference to the "poker community" forgiving the chap. Now I don't have a dog in this fight, don't know the real facts, & don't really care one way or another, but I do know it's nothing to do with the poker community. It's a decision for Grosvenor, & Grosvenor alone. 

Realization that lawyers can be bent needed ITT.

I asked at luton g and there is a set email procedure for persons that are barred/suspended to send a email asking to be reinstated or for a meeting where they can put the reasons that they should have the decision reversed. I am thinking  time will have to pass before any reversal can have a chance .

😂😂😂😂

He'd be on a draw to the 'are you nuts' and a re-draw to the 'are you fucking nuts'

very good  ;applause;

So im coming down on the side of let the barred player back in after a suitable time has passed say 3 to 6 months he will have to put up with the good wishes of supporters asking how could he be so stupid plus the actions of players in a comp sitting beside him wanting plastic trays over there chips during the breaks to keep them from safe , and if the person is vain its going to pain him to have to wear this sack cloth , but to not allow the person to come back to the life that is there very being is too cruel and can only end in a sad way.
I think it was john lennon that sang ..all we are saying is give peace a chance..what is a world where humans dont give another human a chance,over and out .
any thing further i have to say will be on my diary and on the drawings i display at luton g.  best wishes to all .

It's not about punishing the guilty, it's about protecting the innocent.

Ooooh !  That sounds like some awesome super hero quote

Stand back, there's nothing to see here.

somewhat related to this discussion!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/10/casino-visited-home-problem-gambler-lose-1m-24-hours-year-later/

Well yes, & it gives better context to their recent decision to play it by the book.

The sabbatical was brief

https://twitter.com/WilliamKassouf/status/1050355212144136192 (https://twitter.com/WilliamKassouf/status/1050355212144136192)

Boris Johnson has had longer periods without screwing someone over.

Blimey - the "comments" are a bit brutal.

Grosvenor operate a 3 strike policy on Self Exclusions and thus I don’t see that you’d have any chance of reinstatement. Taking into consideration the regulatory framework now in place - it’s unlikely that your commercial worth will be greater than the potential fines should issues arise.

Regarding proof of earnings - if you can prove it, you are fine. It’s not enough to say that you’re a professional gambler though; you have to have evidence of where the funds originate from. It is about money laundering and terrorist financing - and so the challenge for someone that derives earnings through gaming tends to be in evidencing their original investment. Trying to distinguish whether your constant use of cash is from a secret stash at home, built up through your professional gambling, or from the sale of drugs is quite a difficult one to distinguish. Once again - commercial worth is weighted against a potential fine.

I have recently sent another email off to the reinstatement team, a few friends who have read my email said that it was pretty good in terms of getting my point across

im not getting my hopes up at all because as discussed on here it does seem like mission impossible but at the same time I am not ready to give up