blonde poker forum

I am not sure if it's appropriate to start a new thread about this, but as I'm not going to to talk solely about the structures, I'm going to start it anyways. So yah boo.

First and foremost congratulations to those who had a high final table finishing position..

I've play alot with DC down the years and I can confidently state he played better than I've ever seen him play before. Freed from worrying about ranking points and other such nonsense, he just relaxed and played some superb poker, making more moves than an acrobat on speed. He is probably pissed off he didn't win but he shouldn't be. If he carries on like that I confidently predict he will have his best ever year.

Jan Heitman was a new face to most but when I confided his pokerstars name to me I knew all about him. He dominated play for many hours and played his big stack expertly for all that time. He will be seen again at the final table of many major tournaments.

John Kabbaj is probably the most underrated tournament poker player in Europe. But, if he carries on this way he won't be underrated for much longer. He should be in everyone's list of the top 3 players in the UK. He has so many gears he can send you dizzy. His one big failing down the years has been that he's unable to recover from a setback. But, that seems to be a thing of the past now. He deserves this succes and will win many more big events.

Now... onto the thorniest point of all... the structure. I reckon it was 100% spot on. The fact that so many very good players made the final (Julian said something about cream rising to the top) supports my asessment I reckon. Colclough, Xanthos, Kabbaj and O'Connell. Find me another final table in Europe this year with over 200 runners and so many big names making it to the business end.

Yes, there were no 75-150 and 150-300 levels but they added a 500-1000 level which I have never seen at a Gorsvenor tournament. The Vic Card Room relies on cash games to exist and it is not unreasonable to free up a couple of tables quickly so the cash game players can get down to action. There is alot of noise when tournaments end up as crap shoots when the money is on offer. Well, I for one would prefer to have a slightly faster paced event in the early stages, and for the tournament to slow down when the money approaches.

I think for a £1500 event we saw alot of play. On day 1 we played about 7 hours. Day 2 saw over 9 hours of action. Day 3 meant 11 hours of play. (I am including breaks and estimating the totals.. but they are within 30 minutes every day). 27 hours of play over 3 days? Hardly a crapshoot is it?

What do players want? Do you want to play for 7 days for one tournament? I honestly think there are far more important factors to get steamed up about... like it being called "Sponsored by Blue Square" but the sponsor not adding a bean in added money. Like players not getting a a penny from television money. Like players being forced to put a bb in every hand after they miss a round of play (I might be wrong, I was at another table.. but I think when Pascal Perrault missed an hour of play on day3 he wasn't forced to put a bb in every hand... if I am correct this the first time I've seen this in England and hats off to the Vic for another excellent decision).. Like there not being a universal set of rules..

The staff at the Vic are the best. The dealers are brilliant. The playing conditions are superb. I would almost rather win a main event at the Vic than a bracelet (almost but not quite lol).

As for my tournament. I cannot deny being chuffed to bits with my performance. I was really up for playing as I've played so little year and it showed as I played my best ever poker on Day 1 and continued a strong performance throughout the comp. Maybe I wasn't quite aggressive enough in the end.. but with  that chip monster Marc Goodwin on my left for most of Day 2 and Jan Heitman taking most of my stealing opportunities on Day 3 there wasn't much I could do. I was never dealt the boots in 3 days of play and only won the antes on the two occasions I found KK. If I had a bit more run of the cards I could have finished even higher. Oh well. I c'est le vie. If I play like this when I do play I hope I can score a big result in 2006.

Nice Post Keith.

I too thought Dave was back to his best. It's not widely known that he has been unwell for almost a year. He had "polips" (I think that's the name) which gave him severe breathing problems, & a constant streaming nose, like a cold, but not a cold. Smoky atmospheres aggravated it. And he could not sleep properly. He had an operation  2 weeks ago, and is a new man - mainly because he can now sleep properly. It was lovely to see him so focused, and it was an especially good effort consideribng he was almost lowest chip after both Day One and Day Two.

And the German boy - Jan - wow, a revelation. He got some stick for his style, but he LOVED to play flops, was utterly confident in his ability to outplay folks - rather similar to your style Keith - and he was always smiling, plenty of friendly banter, a realy smashing individual, I thought.

My fave hand of the comp was when you & Jan got involved, you bet all the way, he called all the way, on the end, you said "you must win, I got J high" (J-5, as it happened) & he mucked!

???

Great poker, i called a turn bet with 72 today cuz i had a flush draw and he mucked after the river LOL
7 high is the nuts.
Mind you i wasn't in a £1500 comp >:?

Awesome display from all i thought, very good updates

It's a great feeling to get one of those through Ian - better than sex. I'm told.

Very good points keith.

The posting a bb every hand after missing a round rule was scrapped on a group level, so you won't be penalised for doing this at any Grosvenor cardrooms from now on. You do still have to be in your seat when the first hand is dealt though.

Although not huge, Blue Square does put £3,500 into each full week Grosvenor festival. £3,000 for added seats in super satellites for the main events and £500 to the club towards trophies and printing costs.

There are several new proposals being considered at the moment. One of them, if implemented would ensure added value in every Grosvenor festival event.

I just want to know what the structure is going to be before the start so that I can decide if I want to play or not

Then, if I decide to play, I want to know if clock is going to speed up or slow down, it makes the difference between me being short stacked or comfortable

I have never seen a comp where the clock was 45min/1hour/90min/1hour/45min

WPT events at Paris start with a 90 minute clock. The final is played with a 60 minute clock. Last year when they got heads up they played a 30 minute clock!

The Vic has played the first two levels of it's main events with a 45 minute clock moving to an hour clock for at least a year, probably longer.

With 2 day 1's they had to make sure enough players were eliminated so all could be accomodated for day 2. I really think there is no need for a 75-150 level in main events. But, they could have put in a 150-300. Apart from that, an excellent structure. They changed the clock as they saw fit in order to get the tournament finished in time. Better a 45 minute clock than a chip count to decide the winner, surely.

One of the most important skills for a poker player is adaptability. You play the way is most profitable under the conditions on offer. Sometimes you play tight, sometimes loose/aggressive.

aah, the famous symmetrical clock

Harrah and huzzah!!!!!


I would hazard a guess, but I'm not sure, that instead of putting the money into extra seast in super satellites most players would prefer that money going to making the main event juice free for the players.


Hurrah, huzzah, and hip hip horray!!!!

The Vic sent out a flyer for their £750 & £1,500 event which had the blind structures advertised. I have searched everywhere for it but it must have been thrown out with the rubbish.
If anyone has one you can tell if the Vic altered their advertised structure on the day.

Changing the clock each and every day is unacceptable, just start the tournaments earlier. It proves the Vic got it wrong when they decided to halt the competition an hour early because the fear of losing all the players.

Everyone can adapt to blind structures but changing from a 45 min to an 1hour then 90 mins and back to 45mins can throw everyones game plan into array.

Imagine in the Triathlon if after your run they say were making the swim 20 miles instead of 15 but the cycling will be only 12 instead of 18.

Some players start out with a gameplan and set their stall out from the beginning,
timing their  chip accumilation within certain levels of the tournament.
This course of action can go to pot if unscheduled alterations are made like changing the clock.
It just makes the whole thing more likely to become a crapshoot IMHO

Sod the structure, when are they gonna get a proper bar license, every other Grosvenor casino has a late license except the vic...  I had to sober up twice in 1 week ffs :)

I still have The Vic "flyer" IKI, & it is very comprehensive indeed, & apropos structures, it lists EVERY blind level.

But, conspicious by it's absence, it does not even mention the "clock" or lengths of the levels in the Main Event, but it gives this info for EVERY other comp.

One has to assume this was by design, rather than accident. Presumbly, they wanted to give themselves room for maneouvre.

Were any levels removed Tikay?
i.e 75  150  or 150  300.
It seems everyone mentions these 2 levels and I was wondering if they were in the original programme but removed on the day

No craig, they were never there

lol

The very comprehensive Flyer - all 18 pages of it - listed every Level for every comp.

The Main Event did NOT have a 75-150 or a 150-300.

It did have a 500-1,000.

During the entire Fessie, no Events had a 500-1,000 Level EXCEPT the Main Event

During the entire Fessie NO Events had a 75-150 Level..

One Event - the £750 Freezeout - had a 150-300. This was the only Event to have this Level.

Clocks:

These were the advertised clocks, as indicated in the the Flyer.

The £200 PLH had a 30 minute clock all the way.

The £100 Super Sat had a 30 minute clock all the way.

The £750 Freeze had a 45 minute clock all the way.

The £250 PL Hi-Lo had a 30 minute clock all the way.

The £1,000 PLO had a 30 minute clock for the first 2 levels, then 45 minutes all the way.

The Main Event did not have the "clock" listed - it was not mentioned anywhere in the flyer.

I do believe it would have been better to say something like this for the Main Event, assuming they wanted to be certain they could get the Comp finished in time........

"This Event will run to a xx minute clock, but we reserve the right to reduce the Clock if we are running behind schedule".

So if the structure was advertised so far in advance - why were so many people complaining about it? Surely a good poker player can adapt to any structure once announced.

I hear people talking about "taking a game plan" with them before the start of a tournament - i have to admit i try and do the same for either a live or online tournament but then depending on what kind of table i am at when the tournament commences my game plan may go out of the window in the first five minutes.

Like the camel mentions in his report - people complained about the structure and yet the final table was made up of well known professional players, that cant be just a coincidence.

I agree that the length of the levels cannot change from one day to the next in a "two start day" tournament as this could give unfair advantage to the players on one particular start day over another. Like someone has already suggested earlier in this thread, just start the tournament early enough so that you give yourself enough time to reach your alloted number of players in plenty of time.

If you announce that you want each day to play down to say 60-70 players after 8 levels start early enough so that you will easily get the 8 levels in, on day 1a, if after the 8th level you have 70 players or less then the tournament finishes for the day and everyone goes home for an early night or moves tables for a crack at the cash games. If on day 1b you still have 85 players by the time you reach the end of level 8 carry on playing on that level until you have reached your alloted figure of 70. If the tournament has started early enough there should still be enough time left to play down to the target number without having to change any of the levels time length.

With the sudden boom in this game in the last few years it is hardly surprising that the magic formula has yet to be discovered, a few years ago a big main event tournament may have only attracted 100 runners - now 3-4 years later the same big main event is attracting 300 runners, with many more reserves chomping at the bit to be included. Surely you have to allow time for cardrooms to find what structure will work for the large numbers now wanting to participate.

If i remember correctly when the EPT first started a few years back John Duthie came in for a lot of stick for how the tournaments were not able to cope with the demand for seats and that the structures in some of the tournaments were not suitable. Now (with the possible exception of one of the events) most people are praising John and the casinos for how well the EPT events are organised. (this is the impression i am getting from reading the reports anyway after my feeble attempt to just miss out on 4 EPT main event satellites meant not managing to attend one of the events this year)

Now with the ever increasing ability to voice opinions in forums like this the publics opinions are allowed to raise queries and questions and if the concensus is large enough cardrooms cant fail to take notice. Whether they act on the public opinion only time will tell...........

I agree with a fair bit of that Matt, but I do think we ought to know in advance what the clock is for any big buy-in event.

I tend to ask, when considering playing ANY major Comp, "what's the clock?", & I think many peeeps do the same.

But as I never lasted 2 Levels, it was all a bit hypothetical in my case!

But yes, the "levels" WERE widely advertised in advance.

When you say "in advance" how far in advance do you mean? If i remember correctly you played on day 1b of the two starting days and therefore knew after seeing the reports from day 1a you would have known how long the clock was - is that not advance enough?

Everyone must have known that the levels would have been AT LEAST 45 minutes in length - if they arrive only to be told "actually we're going to start on an hour clock and see how it goes", what difference would that have made to anyones preparation - so long as everyone knows once the tournament begins?

Forgive the many questions but as i'm not a regular live tournament player i cant see how much difference it makes how soon in advance people know of the length of the levels.

Yes, you are correct Matt, I DID know 24 hours in advance what the levels were. But largely speaking, I have not been criticising the structure, although most peeps have.

But in my case, had I known it was starting at 45 minutes, I would not have played it. I could have withdawn? Yes. But I'd won my seat weeks in advance, & made plans based around the Event, booked my Hotel, aranged various meetings in london, da de da de da, so at 24 hours notice, it was not convenient to withdraw.

My position on this debate has remained the same throughout - I am trying to ensure BOTH sides of the argument are well-aired, and I'm pretty much the only one who is!

And my early exit was not connected to the structure by the way. It was something to do with being a part of the marine world.

This is why i ask the questions as i, like many of the blondites on the forum, do not play in the main events of these festivals on a regular basis. I read all these threads of complaint and think "what are they complaining about? 45 minutes, 60 minutes - there cant be that much difference provided everyone knows when the tournaments commences".

So why would you not have played in the tournament if you would have known that the levels were only 45 minutes, even though you won your seat in a satellite?

If the clock would have been 60 minutes would you have played and what major difference would the extra 15 minutes make in influencing your decision to play (lol, in some casino's i've played in the past with all the dwelling that occurs you would only probably get an extra round in per level!!  :D)

Because, for me PERSONALLY, I prefer a 1 hour clock, that suits my game, such as it is, and for £1,500 I think I don't want to play a faster clock. I could have used my "free seat" at Luton instead, where although I have yet to see the clocks, I feel sure it will be a 1 hour jobbie, Luton usually is. It's no coincidence - in my opinion - that I have had 9 Festival Cashes at Luton in about 2 years, & none at all at The Vic! Luton clocks are usually slower, & they include 75-150 & 150-300 I believe, though I'm not 100% sure on that.

But we are not all the same, & that is my point - many good judges were happy with The Vic structure, whereas I'm just a foot-soldier.

FWIW, I believe a 1 hour clock "live" is equivelant to a 15 or 20 minute clock online. I can & do make a nice profit from playing 15 & 20 minute Online clocks.

Horses for courses. Or, in my case at The Vic, fish for courses?.

The problem was, as I see it, that it was in fact a "mystery" clock and as such was open to manipulation and abuse.

I am not suggesting that manipulation and abuse took place, just that the opportunity was there.

I cannot help but sympathise with those like Red-dog and others who were playing a shortish stack accordingly on a one hour clock at the end of a day, only to find that the next day's clock was now two hours. Obviously they would have played differently, and equally obviously it is not fair.

My own feeling is that this tourney would have worked perfectly well with a one hour clock throughout.
And to have played down to two tables on day two.

So basically all it boils down to is personal preference - some people prefer 45 minute clocks and some prefer 90 minute clocks.

You're not going to please all the people all the time so those that dont like it, its simple - dont play in the first place. Playing then kicking up a fuss is surely the wrong way to go about it?

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this Tikay - perhaps if all the players who had gripes would take the time to do the same then maybe the cardrooms would have more to act on?

As far as i'm aware you are correct that Luton will have the 1 hour clock but looking at their blind structure it is identical to the Vic with no 75/150 or 150/300 levels.

<post edit comments: from what i gather by reading the reports people playing in Day 1a were complaining that the tournament was fast turning into a crapshoot so to compensate the cardroom lengthened the blind levels. This lead to people complaining that its unfair that the clock should be adjusted. basically they were in a no-win situation at the time as whatever course of action they took would have drawn complaints. Is this the first time that the Vic have held a main event tournament with 2 seperate starting days?>

Like Karibiner says, of cause the shorter stacks would have played differently had they know it was going to be a 2 hour clock the next day instead of 45 mins.
The luck element in a 45 minute clock tourny is higher than a 90 minute tourny because you are forced to play more hands to keep up with the pace and theres a lot more gambling.
That is why the posting only the blinds when it is your turn if you are missing,or late, makes perfect sense as even if you are the big stack you still have to keep up with the  game and missing hands gives no advantage

I think everyones gripe is the inconsistancy with the levels.
If it was same time level through out I think people would have been happier.

OK, when I have mentioned structure in the past about the VIC - I should of said blind levels (ie Clock).

Also, yes I should of used my Satelite win for Luton instead of the Vic - Like TK I have cashed in the last 4 festivals there, and none at the Vic.

Now from reading Keiths post, I must admit, it makes sense. Maybe I just 'prefer' the feel of the Luton scene better than the Vic? I dont know.

What I DO know is that the last major festival at the Vic - they WOULD NOT tell me the clock even the day before the comp! . Same was true this time.

The Vic do seem to "get it wrong" alot with major tourneys - whereas I have not seen this at Luton. If I was running that comp at the Vic, I would of advertised it as an Hour clock throughout - playing Thursday and Friday until 4am. Playing Saturday from 2pm till 27 remain to come back for Sunday at 2pm.

It is the changing of the clock - 45min to 60 min to 90 min back to 60min that I feel annoys most people.

I understand that it is the same for all players and you need to adapt - I fully agree with this, but clearly the blind levels were incorrect at the VIC - they even missed out the last level on days 1 and 2 for fear of not having enough players to bring back!

Karabiner, as usual, get it about right. I supose wiseness comes with age.

Though for the sake of record, it never went to 2 hours. It went, as I recall, 45 mins, 60 mins, 90 mins, 60 mins, 45 mins, 60 mins. I think....!

As we neared the end of the last level on day one, I was on a short stack, and I was expecting to come back to bigger blinds and antes on day two

Therefore I considered myself to be in the position of "Having to make a move" cards not withstanding

Had I known that the same level would be repeated, and that the clock would be extended, I would have had, in my opinion, the option to wait for better hands/situations

If the goal posts are going to be moved, It's unfair to do it just when the striker has committed himself to one last desperate diving header, at the very least the players should be told in advance

My real gripe is, although they were responsible for hundreds of thousands of pounds of players money, they made it clear, (to me anyway) that they didn't care what we thought

As to Luton omitting the 75-150 & 150-300 Levels Matt, I am pretty sure that if we make the case to Carmel - & I intend to - she will put at least one of these in - she is very amenable to accepting player suggestions as to Prize & Tourney structure. And I strongly recommend others talk to Carmel if you have a view on the matter, because we all have different wish-lists, and I have no position to speak on behalf of others. Though if there were a body of opinion on the blonde Forum, I would convey that to Carmel at Luton. But the thing with Luton is this - you cannot moan after the Event, as they take, indeed encourage, player input before the Event.

So players should speak to them! Politely, mind, 'cos Carmel will beat you up if you don't.

In answer to youor other question, this is the 2nd time (that I am aware) that The Vic have held a Two Day Event. They got it a bit round their neck the first time - EVERY player had to turn up on Day One just to find out if they were playing on Day One or Two, it was chaotic & quite dreadful. They got that part spot on this time, so credit where credits due.

But what if 10-15 people say that they want the 75/150 and 150/300 levels putting into the tournament but 10-15 people say that they dont want the additional levels putting in? Like you say everyone has a different wish list - but who does the casino side with? Either way there are still going to be people disgruntled that it isnt their way.

I was at Luton last night and I had a look at the structures for the festival events, the 150/300 level was indeed missing, and I suggested that pehaps it should be included, especially for the main event

I was told that as far as the cardroom super knew, it was supposed to be included for the main event, and he promised to chase it up

What ever they dicide, I felt like my thoughts had been taken on board

And THATS the point - Luton WILL listen.

If they get 10 peeps saying they want this, & 10 saying thay want that, well too bad, some are gonna be unhappy, but at least we will kmow where we stand BEFORE the Event gets going.

I am recording Poker 425 tomorrow (which by the way, will NOT be including the footage from The Vic - that will be next week), and this issue will clearly be a discussion point. If you want to contribute a view, PLEASE e-mail them, so we have something to chew over. Otherwise you will just get me blathering on as to what I think.

either that or you will be parading your new seat cushions again  :D

all valid points,................ but................... WHAT ABOUT THE BAR LICENCE ?

Did not realise you were a drinker Kev.......

E-mail the show & we will discuss it!

Gotta tell you a little story.

Kev & myself, as well as a bunch of other blondes, assembled late one night last week in The Marriott at Waltham Abbey, after attending the Ladies Poker Open.

It was Champagne galore, Jack Daniels left right & centre, everyone was half cut. Except the teetotal killjoy in the party, yours truly. The Barman comes for the order, "a bottle of Moet, (The Yongsta was in the chair) Jack Daniels for Kev, bla bla bla, what do you want Tony?". "Horclicks or Ovaltine please", I say.

The Barman never bats an eyelid, just takes the order (& jolly nice it was too), but Kev's face was a picture.  "You have to show me up" he slurred.......

... so did he bring Horlicks or Ovaltine??

The suspense is unbearable.

IMO the best structures are those that always allow an average stack to comfortably call a raise throughout the competition.  I think the best way to achieve this is by starting with less chips, a long clock and a gradual increase in the blinds. 

Starting with 200bbs means that most competent players are unlikely to be eliminated in the early stages - why shouldn't players be under pressure from the start?   

Why not start with 6000 chips and blinds increasing on a 60 minute clock 50/100 75/150 100/200 100/200 ante 150/300 ante etc.  If you are not playing, this kind of structure will gradually increase the pressure but should always allow for play between average stacks although with the constant danger of elimination. 

The problem with many of the structures in British comps is the sudden change from having plenty of BBs to having little or no fold equity i.e you need to find some sort of a hand - and if you dont get it, you very quickly after find yourself in allin with anything territory.  I think this is what happened at the Vic and why players feel aggrieved.   

Keith very good points on your first Post,I agree there should be always money added to the prize pool if televised and the structure was great i really enjoyed it( also where are you hiding after causing all these debates  little Keith  lol)
Chubbs

i think a lot of the blind structures ,will allways hurt the type of nuts players ,
it all depends weather they get hands early doors ,
were as the strong agressive typs like kieth or simon ,or julian can make there moves
any time and know whene they can get away with it .
the 750 comp at the vic was a good structure untill the later stages ,
made it a type of crap shoot , i would have preferd the 1500 structure anyday

Err Vinni, the £750 was a 45 minute clock all the way through, just like the monthly £300 at Walsall.

I've never heard anything but praise for that tournament.

So when did it become a crapshoot ?

The £1500 at the Vic went from a 90 minute clock with three tables left to a 45 minute clock on the final table.

Exactly which bit of that do you prefer mate ?

the blinds at 3000 6000 / 300  running ante ,any one sat on the 70/80k mark had 2 or possibly 3  moves max ,which showed ,as how quickly it went down to the last 4 . 45 mins to be exact