yea id fold here

just raise and you said you've been nitty in blinds so this should get you a fold a lot more. raise/fold pre.

if he flats. just c-bet/fold unfavorable flops.

reads on villain and your perceived image should've been posted.

in a vacuum, i dont mind your line. checking turn for pot control oop and bluffcatching. as played you prolly have to call river.

obv. betting turn has its merits ie getting value and protecting against draws and other metagame considerations but again it depends on villain and reads on them.

obv. your call pre with 109o with your stack is questionable.

Say hypothetically, you were both quite deepstacked and somehow gameflow dynamics dictate a call pre with 109o in position is justifiable, then flatting on flop is good. flatting turn is fine if you have solid reads which you seem to have given long history. But you have to be capable of calling big bet on blank rivers if you call turn. River check is good.

Easy shove for me with 19bbs. Close with 66s but still shove unless there's a bunch of regs. after me capable of calling correctly. Fold 55s prolly. r/f is not an option for me with this stacksize.

I'd prolly have some idea just paying attention to previous betting patterns if any. And I doubt he is such an ubergenious that he is balancing his chip tells.

To answer the qn. should it affect the A's decision? I mean you have to take it into consideration obv. and use any bit of info. if it helps your decision making and it'd make for a cool blog post later like belowabove.

But for me, more than any chip tells, the river card makes the decision easy.  Basically, with river Q, majority of 3betting range now beats KJ, if it wasnt already. AA/KK/QQ/AK/AJ/KQ/TT all beat KJ. Only hands A beats are AQ and JJ and doubt B would take this line with it. So unless Player B has been superlaggy and is capable of turning 99s/midconnector type hands into 3barrel bluffs, A can fold this safely.

So prolly answer here is B used 25x100 chips here to get a call.

play at the bike from time to time. I dont mind 'commentary' as long as its limited to repeating what the player said, guess it also clarifies if a player meant to say something else or wasnt loud enough etc.

And as far as 'setting bets' I think its cool if dealers did that but sometimes you have to tell them to pull the bet in to see the difference.

heh think topic's been made overcomplicated. pretty simple spot for me.

as we know there's diff. ways to play a hand. I stand by how I said I would play it out as it suits my overall gameplan and I'm sure others arguing for alternative lines have their reasons.

this one's getting old. moving on to next hand. cheers.

def. dont play by a formula. I like to think I adapt well.

I guess, with my overall style of playing, I can't see myself minraising with AJ pre in this spot. I feel more comfortable shoving or folding AJ pre given stacks. Even if OP 'appears' like they would raise fold, I still just like to get it in pre. I dont think 11bbs stack is good for minraise play oop to try to pick up a few more chips.

I see the argument about 'if OP is guaranteed to raise fold but will call a minraise so we can minraise to pick up chips.' But I would rather balance my shoving range/image. For one, its easy to say 'clearly he looks like he will raise/fold but he will call a minraise 100% and I know for sure I have him dominated.' There's no way for you to know that . So, do you want to a) maybe pickup 50k chips but no guarantees by making an awkward/fancy play or b) stay balanced with your image/use it later in a metagame sense to your benefit headsup to get opponents to make mistakes. And the latter works for me and I'll just be honest, minraise generally as a play technically is not appealing to me, atleast for my overall style of play.

I'm all for creative plays and if someone can make it work for them, more power to them.  I just dont think minraising AJ there is hugely +EV but could be breakeven or -ev play longterm, atleast for me. But good discussion guys, cheers.

ha atleast I dont see a bunch of wtfs and "my heads gonna asplode" type of posts so thats a good sign.

basically what I wrote previously was either not read entirely and/or not interpreted correctly and taken out of context.

I clearly said 'I do believe villain played it incorrectly. If you have AJ in villain's spot, do not minraise. Depending on payouts/game dynamics, shove or fold.'

1. So I was arguing the villain with AJ did play it bad and anyone arguing minraising with AJ "to get action from worse hands/get opponent to spew or he got you to get your money in with a worse hand" is making a technically flawed argument, esp. given stack sizes. So I disagree with anyone that is arguing minraising with AJ is a good line and winning mtters/sngers will tell you its a terrible play and virtually no set of circumstances justify minraise with AJ as a +EV play.

2. Also, anyone arguing that raise/folding QJ pre is not an option is either taking my argument out of context or is not familiar with some specific mtt/sng dynamics. I clearly said depending on payouts/game dynamics. Say if the opponent with AJ is a nit playing to cash, then you can raise QJ and fold if he shoves as you know when he does take a stand he will have you crushed. Say if payout structure is 10k each for 1st and 2nd only, then you can raise QJ and fold as you're opponent will have to fold AJ there and if he shoves, you can easily fold. So as much as I had hoped my implying all this would be understood by using a phrase like "depending payouts/game dynamics" I guess sometimes you just have to expand on it.

3. Also, anyone arguing folding AJ pre is not an option and is equivalent to 'might as well quit if AJ is folded pre' is also offering incorrect advice and I obv. disagree with that as well. My point is, as I clearly said, depending on payout structures/game dynamics, shove or fold AJ pre. So I'm arguing there will be times given an entirely different payout structure and against a particular set of opponents, you will have to fold AJ pre and doing anything else will be hugely -EV. Any satty/icm expert will tell you there are times when folding AA pre is correct and/ AJ is not even close. Again, I clearly said, 'depending on payouts, raise or fold AJ pre' so if you ignore half of the sentence and argue "you can never fold AJ pre" then basically your argument is invalid as you are taking my point out of context. So anyone saying "he is wrong cus he is evaluating a diff. hand" well I'm not wrong cus I'm evaluating a diff. hand, I'm actually changing up the parameters like payouts and player images to illustrate another point and taking OP's spot a step further.

I guess as I expand on this some of it will be clear thats why I said reread the post to see what I was referring to (ie diff. set of parameters regarding payouts/table dynamics).

4. Thing is I don't expect for everyone to interpret everything I say in a sentence entirely the way I intended it without me having to expand/clarify that's why people write books, some of these concepts you can write pages on and no one has time for that here. I guess I was assuming by using generalized phrases like 'depending on payouts/game dynamics' people will get what I'm implying and clearly not everyone did.

5. I didn't say winning player to insinuate the other poster isnt. Just from my experience, a lot of respected regs don't go "wtf, my heads exploding, i can rip more into this post" etc but instead ask constructive qns. if they arent clear on something. The kind of debate I prefer to engage in is the civil, constructive one. That's why I offered to not post in his other threads if our posting styles don't gel well as I would not like to contribute to disruption on this forum.

So basically some of this confusion resulted from misinterpretation and some of it I believe through incorrect fundamental understanding of concepts/correct plays. Hopefully some of that is clarified. I'm done with this hand and moving on to next one as its a simple spot to me and there is nothing more I can expand on here.

I would add it was an interesting discussion. As I get used to posting in strategy forums, it did help me realize some stuff like how not to phrase strategy opinions.  I am definitely not trying to create any confusion. Cheers.

ok i dont mind shipping in op's spot with qjs although case can be made to raise fold given a diff. set of parameters.


ok now to illustrate my earlier point lets use #s.

lets keep blinds same at 8k/16k. same stacks.

utg 50k folds
utg+1 (villain/cutoff for this example) with 310k stack makes it 34k.
button with 70k folds.
small blind with 70k folds.
You're hero in big blind in 2nd place with 170k and see AJ. top 2 places paid with really good prizes for 1st, not so great for 2nd.

What would you do? minraise with AJ, fold or shove AJ facing a raise from big stack?

Now lets change the payouts and say its a satty and top 2 get paid equal.

Now you're faced with same spot with AJ. What would you do? minraise/fold/shove facing a raise from big stack?

Answers to this seem easy and obvious to me. Maybe this will get the other poster to see what I meant by my earlier strat. post.

chill I am not rooks neither do I know anyone with that name. PSU stands for Penn State Uni. obv. in case you didn't know.

but to the topic, seriously you should reread that strat. post and maybe the points will get across this time around.  if not oh well.

or really try posting that on any other good strat. forums and read similar points told to you from diff. ppl. before spazzing out and typing wtfs like 5 times in a sentence and offering incorrect advice.

all I'll point to you is like I said in my earlier post, again, look at stack sizes and read again what I explained. if you cant get it from there, guess I cant help you as it doesn't seem you're interested in improving as much as typing wtfs a bunch of time.

guess as you dont understand my strat. posts, I won't post in your threads.

As for that strat. post of mine, like I said earlier, if OP/other respected posters have a qn. feel free to ask.

Either way, I dont have time for this offtopic exchange in a strat. forum. I'm here strictly to read what other good players post and contribute positively in the strat. forums myself.

lulz um ok

tho you should prolly read my post again.

either way your post reminds me of...



lulz guessing for your sake your post was a level

also either way prolly for you it's...



just lulz

one of the reasons its not preferred to post in public strategy forums sometimes. gotta deal with random spazzouts like that. there should be some ban/restrictions after someone makes a post like that. lol fortunately, i've found that post is mostly an exception to the majority of posts on the strat forum here so thats good so far.

I might post on a couple forums to get other people's perspective for your sake or you should try doing that. lol im not even gonna bother expanding on my strat. post above. was pretty simplistic i thought. if a winning player wants to clarify it to him go for it but i wouldnt blame them if they didnt. if op or a respected winning player has a qn./need a clarification feel free to ask and will be glad to clarify.

lol tho oh well.

yea like people said given stacks, raise less to like 34k and fold to this stack's shove and call shorties.

he actually did play AJ bad. for one, not sure if its correct icm wise for him to even play pre after your raise. but say he was playing for 1st, he should really be shipping pre. this minraise with AJj is weak, he doesnt need to get action from you and play postflop, he should be using any fe he's got left and shipping pre.

unless he got a massive tell on you where he knows he's got you dominated which I doubt cus he shipped Q high flop anyway. the point about he got you to commit with a worse hand is not necessarily valid as QJ is probably at the bottom of your range and there's no way for him to know you have specifically that hand this time around. yea he happened to have you dominated this time around but that would happen to be the case far less often. he has to put you specifically on that hand and assume you would call a minraise but fold to a shove and for him to be able to get away from it on Q high flop when he missed for that to be valid.

basically, if you have AJ in his spot, dont minraise. just fold pre or ship it in pre depending on variables like game dynamics/payout structure etc.

i mean no hand is really "too big to ship to pick up just the blinds and antes" when you just have 15bbs, certainly not AT.

as played jam is fine but since you are in position, you could check behind, take a free card and reeval. turn since the flop does hit some of their calling range w kj/kq/k10/q10 etc and you kinda butchered the hand pre and could pot control now.

pot would be at 50k now not 60k and you have 100k behind. check behind and fold to a big sized bet on a blank turn or peel if the bet is 25k or so and if you hit a pair.