I have recently sent another email off to the reinstatement team, a few friends who have read my email said that it was pretty good in terms of getting my point across

im not getting my hopes up at all because as discussed on here it does seem like mission impossible but at the same time I am not ready to give up

I work for a company that was audited by the GC earlier this year. All operators are. 

the landscape has become much tougher, responsible gambling is a huge focus and fines levied across the industry have run into seven figures

Not only is it entirely the correct decision to not overturn a ban, I am convinced that if any of those that have yet you back saw this thread they would re-instate the ban immediately. As i work for one, know who you are and know this information, it is causing me a problem!

Just from a risk reward perspective their revenue from you might be hundred or thousands who knows how much you might lose, but the potential fine and business impact if they are wrong and subsequent problems you face are down to problem gambling and its discovered on their next audit, the fine will far far outweigh that

As everyone is saying, self exclusions and responsible gambling initiatives are not designed to provide short term panaceas for whatever problems an individual is facing, hence they are usually long term.

Multiple use of self-exclusions is as it should be, one of the biggest red flags of them all

Im not sure which is the company you presently work for but out of the 4 I visit, 2 accepted me back ONLY after having discussions with me. So id argue that they have done their due diligence, furthermore in the 20months since I have been back on the scene there is not nor has there been any need for concern about my gambling. I do not have a gambling problem.

a friend of mine works for a big london casino relatively high up, he's told me stories about Arab tourists whove bern coming and losing £1m a yr for a decade they have had to restrict duevto proof of funds issues. If it was your own casino you'd do anything you could to keep this customer, but its not - its big chains with 9figure businesses to protect and layers of management who dont massively get the gaming industry but they know if they get it wrong on these issues they could easily lose thier job.

@shmiegle - i think the point you are missing from the majority of the replies is that if we (me grisvenor etc) 'believe' you or not is totally irrelevant to your situation. I can actually perfectly understand what you're saying and find the idea of you being easily able to reinstate at Grosvenor with little/no risk to yourself totally plausible...after all you're a member at other casinos and certainly don't seem to be triple mortgaging your house to gamble....

The thing is its actually nothing to do with that thier decision, you could prove beyond 0.1% doubt you dont have a problem with gambling and they still probably wont let you in. Like i said before you are just not worth the risk- uncapped downside pretty much after ypu self excluded twice... that's just a company perspective too - not even your biggest hurdle, put yourself in the shoes of the guy making this call to reinstate you, some thing goes wrong and thus blows up he's 100% gettimg sacked. Why risk it, your business is kind of irrevelent to the grand scheme of things.

Again none of this is personal, none of this is saying its fair, certainly none of this is suggesting you have a gambling problem. This is just facts of the case, I think your days at Grosvenor are probably over, unless you can find someone VERY high up happy to make a call like this, if you convince that person you've got no problem then you probably have a good shot. Middle-level or local level management though i honestly think you arw drawing close to dead.

thank you for the inside information tidbit.
iv heard of this POF situation and I guess there reaches a level of gambling where questions will get asked and checks carried out for money laundering etc

[The problem is that you used self-exclusion multiple times without thinking about the implications]

I completely accept your rationale for using self-exclusion. Honestly, I do. I don't know you from Adam, but I'm fully prepared to accept your word on this. I know you'll believe me, even though you don't know me from Adam. So, now that we've put that to bed....

The problem is that you used self-exclusion multiple times without thinking about the implications. So true.
Several other posters have made this point, and it's the one that you still seem to be struggling to accept - that from Grosvenor's (and you should count yourself lucky that it's only them) POV, you're flying a huge red flag.

I suspect that none of us that have posted on this thread actually know you irl, so you couldn't really find a more objective audience. Agreed
So there isn't anything personal about the responses (apart from one exasperated post, perhaps), and you DO seem to be taking it personally. Besides Scrote's post I am not taking it personally. I certainly don't think anyone has it in for me or is biased towards me. I feel like I am getting totally honest replies.

Me saying that you guys have probably got it right in terms of understanding Grosvenor's position does not mean I agree but as you share opinion I am failing in getting my point across to you as I am to them.

Feels like we're going in circles. I think we all understand your point of view. You thought using self exclusion multiple times was a measured and appropriate mechanism to control your gambling. You think it demonstrates a very small likelihood you are, or will become, a problem gambler.

Have I understood correctly?

yes is my answer.

Judging by the majority of responses ( GC ) I have received since I asked for help I can understand why my situation is as it is.

Me saying that you guys have probably got it right in terms of understanding Grosvenor's position does not mean I agree but as you share opinion I am failing in getting my point across to you as I am to them.
That and also MAYBE you both( G and GC ) don't believe me.

Wanting or taking a break from gambling does not mean you have a problem. Maybe you realise or feel like you are on a losing streak and you want to reset.
Maybe you have some financial obligations like a wedding or holiday and you need to prioritise your finances which means putting a hobby or pastime on the back burner. 
This is normal.

Lets take a moment to go off topic and talk about smoking and smokers as an example to try make a point.
I and im sure you might (at least a few of you ) have known a few ppl over the years try to quit smoking. Not every quitter but I know and have heard of a few people who kept and made sure they had a box of cigs in their home. This might seem weird for someone trying to quit something to have what they are trying to quit so easily accessible but just having it there, and knowing if they really wanted a cig they could, this helped them mentally get through quitting. Other people just decide I want to stop and boom, Cold turkey they just stop.

I am one of the cig box in the house people metaphorically speaking.
When I wanted a break I quit. To make sure I quit for a long enough time period that I wanted, in other words no changing my mind next week or next month I used to self exclude knowing full well that for the next 6months I would not be allowed in the casino. Any casino. Its PEACE OF MIND. I don't have to argue with myself, say no to myself, debate with myself, nothing. Its done. Iv signed a piece of paper and for 6 months its time to try some new hobbies.

Is there anything wrong with anything I have said ^^^^^ ?

The main point of this post is to get one message across. To explain why I would self exclude. If we can get past this point then we can move on to self exclusion frequency

Your mistakes far surpass self excluding many times, in fact, that is the only good decision you have made when it comes to casinos. Stay away from them, they have already caused you and others around you far too much grief and heartache.

dickhead post ^^^

like you know me well enough to make such a sweeping comment. don't get personal with me or you will get it straight back.

[ok sorry]

I feel like people are seeing what they want to and I feel like I am defending myself which was not the kind of support I was looking for

I grew up in a different country and im obviously a product of my environment.
Self excluding was not something I considered serious or severe. It was just an option I used to take a break when I felt I needed it. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO READ INTO IT.
I have been open and honest about the good and the bad.
I am not a problem gambler. I am a gambler.

In one of my emails to Grosvenor I tried to explain that they are accomplishing nothing by not allowing me back, nothing except limiting my options of where and which POKER tournaments I can play.
If I was a problem gambler I could get my fix of anything POKER/SLOTS/ROULLETTE/BLACKJACK at any of the other casinos I am allowed in. I could do my bollocks 24hrs a day 7 days a week if I wanted to.

SO TO SUM UP.... I made a mistake self excluding so many times. I did it without realising the full implications beyond the minimum 6month period that it would be valid for or how it would look to anyone else looking at it through the eyes of RG. Is this the kind of mistake that I deserve to be denied membership for an indefinite period ??

You are getting hold of the wrong end of the stick here, mate. ok sorry

What I & others are doing is telling you the probable reason that Grosvenor won't re-admit you. We are not on their side, nor are we criticising you, we are just explaining why Grosvenor have made the decision they have.

"...In one of my emails to Grosvenor I tried to explain that they are accomplishing nothing by not allowing me back, nothing except limiting my options of where and which POKER tournaments I can play. ...."

The worth of a poker player to a Gaming Group is of extremely limited value in itself. They want you for House Games, not poker. Set against the potential fine they face from the GC for re-admitting a player who - on the face of it - is demonstrating a whole bunch of red flags, you are a potential liability to Grosvenor.
So if I am a millionaire table game player then its possible they'd want my business ? this is the implication I get from this paragraph.


"I am defending myself which was not the kind of support I was looking for"

Nobody here is attacking you, you asked some questions & got the correct answers. We (certainly me) are not attacking you mate & don't have a problem with you.

You keep saying stuff that is very damaging though.

You had credit from Casinos at 16 years of age?

I mean, that's GG you right there in today's super sensitive RG environment.
that was 20yrs ago. there werent even card machines then. it was all cash or cheques. having that facility open to me as a customer is more a badge of honour than a blemish. cause in that day and age it was more who you know than what you know. so it was a sign that the casino management vouched for my honesty and integrity by offering and allowing me such a thing.

What you seem to have missed is the whole change in approach to RG from the Gaming Industry - not because they wanted to, but because the GC forced them to, with a whole series of massive fines. In 2018 alone, the major Gaming businesses have faced fines of £8 million, £6 million, several at £2 million, £1 million & £600,000 for what were deemed lax controls of problem gambling.
no one can accuse Grosvenor of being lax in this regard. personally I think they are over the top. but that's natural for someone in my present position.

Why should they risk those sort of fines for a poker player? THAT is why they are denying you re-admission.

Nobody here is attacking you, just trying to help you understand.
thank you. me too... im just trying to get my side of the story across. what if there is someone reading this who has the position to help me but is put off cause they don't understand where im coming from ??

SO TO SUM UP.... I made a mistake self excluding so many times. I did it without realising the full implications beyond the minimum 6month period that it would be valid for or how it would look to anyone else looking at it through the eyes of RG. Is this the kind of mistake that I deserve to be denied membership for an indefinite period ??

I feel like people are seeing what they want to and I feel like I am defending myself which was not the kind of support I was looking for

I grew up in a different country and im obviously a product of my environment.
Self excluding was not something I considered serious or severe. It was just an option I used to take a break when I felt I needed it. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO READ INTO IT.
I have been open and honest about the good and the bad.
I am not a problem gambler. I am a gambler.

In one of my emails to Grosvenor I tried to explain that they are accomplishing nothing by not allowing me back, nothing except limiting my options of where and which POKER tournaments I can play.
If I was a problem gambler I could get my fix of anything POKER/SLOTS/ROULLETTE/BLACKJACK at any of the other casinos I am allowed in. I could do my bollocks 24hrs a day 7 days a week if I wanted to.

SO TO SUM UP.... I made a mistake self excluding so many times. I did it without realising the full implications beyond the minimum 6month period that it would be valid for or how it would look to anyone else looking at it through the eyes of RG. Is this the kind of mistake that I deserve to be denied membership for an indefinite period ??

[a permanent measure]

Essentially, you're using an option that's intended to be a permanent measure as some sort of on/off switch for which it was never intended. 

id argue against this. The only stipulation imho when you take out self exclusion is that its non negotiable for the period chosen and the minimum time period is 6months.



As others have expressed, based on reading this thread, the bigger surprise to me is that the other chains have allowed you to return, rather than Grosvenor not allowing you to do so, as yet.

Why is this surprising given I have explained that it was something I used flippantly? I didn't think it was a big deal. These other casino's know me personally, they accepted what I said and were prepared to give me the benefit of doubt in terms of judging me historically.
Iv been Gambling in casino's since I was 16. I had a marker at a casino when I was 16. A marker for those who don't know is a credit facility whereby the casino would lend me money to gamble with if I had run out of cash etc on the night. I used to self exclude even then when I wanted a break.
I don't know when exactly RG became so prominent here in the UK but it is probably in the last about 5yrs or so... times change. I didn't change fast enough.
30yrs ago many people would drink and drive. It wasn't legal but it was just what everyone did. In the present its seriously frowned upon. So before when I used to self exclude ( cause im being judged for my history of self excluding) it wasn't a big deal. Now it is and then you look at my history and it looks worse that it is in reality cause most of those self exclusions where during a a time frame when self excluding wasn't a big deal.

Regardless of the outcome with Grosvenor I would strongly suggest not repeating this methodology with the other chains again unless you intend for them to be permanent exclusions, as I suspect you're ultimately going to have similar issues across the board.
AMEN

[as a form of self control]

I think the point you are missing is that even if you self exclude as a form of self control, it is an alarm bell for the casino, multiple self exclusions and you are telling them the only way you can control yourself is to self exclude.
that makes a lot of sense.
my response is yes I have used it as A form of self control and the multiple uses just show that it is my preferred method and not the only as you have put it

As I have mentioned in a previous post for me personally I find it easier knowing that I cant go. its like a switch in my head...........

If that is true you shouldn't be in a casino.

I would suggest that if you get an answer to your question from Grosvenor it will be that they are doing their job correctly and the others are not.
.........but, other casino's do take RG seriously. I had to have management chats with both Broadway and Genting before I was reinstated. As part of these chats I was made aware that self exclusion is not a tool to be used flippantly as I was doing. Its like I kept using a bandage when a plaster would do. I have learnt my lesson. I now self control just fine with out self excluding, further evidence of my switch. Now I know self exclusion is not an option its not something I ever feel like implementing again.

That is certainly how it looks from here.

thank you for all your points of view

That makes perfect sense, but consider the problem from Grosvenor's perspective. (I'm not flying a flag for them btw).

You said earlier;

"I have self excluded from various casino's individually, and collectively at different times."
This, in itself, raises a warning flag to Gaming Businesses, suggesting you could ("could", not do) have a gambling problem.
I UNDERSTAND THIS ^^ BUT I REFER TO THE POINT OF I USED SELF EXCLUSION AS A FORM OF CONTROL. ultimately THIS IS WHY THE OTHER CASINO'S LET ME BACK IN AFTER A CHAT. BECAUSE FACE TO FACE AND VERBALLY I WAS ABLE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF AND WHY I DID WHAT I DID

The B & M Casino groups all network about these things, so Grosvenor become aware that after multiple self-exclusions, you have re-applied for Membership of at least 5 Casinos. (Broadway, Rainbow, Genting, DTD & Grosvenor).
THIS POINT IS VERY INNOCENTLY EXPLAINED, im predominantly a poker player. so these casino's are where I play poker at and I wanted to make sure I had the full choice of games and venues available to me

How do you think that looks to them? It really does look as if you could have a gambling problem.
yes I agree with this but lets flip it, how bout they(GROSVENOR) say why are the other 4/5 happy to have John back and we are the only ones saying NO?

And the real problem here is that the GC are stamping down hard on RG. If down the line, you develop a problem, Grosvenor would be in really hot water with the GC. It's quite surprising, actually, that the other 4 Casinos re-admitted you so readily.

Also, remember Grosvenor don't WANT to ban you or anyone else - they want & need customers to visit their properties, & use their Online products. Why would a business WANT to ban anyone? They don't, but they are fearful of the new GC RG initiative.

Anyway, look at it another way. Why do you want to be a member of a club or group that does not want you? If a business says my money is not welcome, they sure as hell won't see a penny of it.
TYPICALLLY ID AGREE BUT GROSVENOR OFFER SOME GOOD TOURNAMENTS, 25/25 AND GOLIATH AS PRIME EXAMPLES. so im willing to not get too principled on them not wanting my business

Anyway, GL mate. thank you, I think im gonna need a lot of luck to resolve this

interesting to read your analysis of the hand AAvKKvQQ as you saw it

I find the hand confusing because I feel like seeing the K flop bias's me too much towards you should have called hoped the QQ guy called too for you to have a side pot

I think me knowing that the player I think might have AA doesn't have me covered I would call as I ''cant get knocked out the tourn''

but still...... what an iconic hand.

I can appreciate what the last 2(before doobs) posters are saying, but let me explain myself as we(people) are not all the same

the kind of person I am I can get obsessed about/with something.
so with regards gambling etc if I wanted/needed a break for me it was just easier to self exclude.
that way I wouldn't even think about it.
self abstinence is not everyone's forte so I found this route much easier.

to my mind I was being responsible, I was realising when I was losing my self control and id take action to address it. I thought that's what gambling responsibly is about.

hi

I have never been barred or banned.
I have self excluded from various casino's individually, and collectively at different times.

My last self exclusion was collectively using the SENSE program. This was in June 2016. After the non negotiable minimum period of 6 months I set about reinstating my membership at the various casino companies. So time line wise this was from January 2017

Broadway accepted me back immediately, Rainbow casino and DTD too. Genting made me have a meeting with a manager to discuss my gambling and that it was appropriate for me to return. There was some sort of administration work ( talk to senior management) and after about 48hrs they contacted me to say it was all good and I was welcome back. Grosvenor is the only other casino I was a member of that I needed to get reinstated,

As I have done this at least twice before with them specifically I knew the drill. Send them an email and wait for them to get back to you. Both times previously with-in a few weeks I had received a response in the affirmative.
This time after about 3weeks I got a generic refusal.
I challenged their decision.
I can provide more info regarding the actual correspondence but that's the gist of it
This happened a few times over the course of 2017. It has continued into 2018.