I think you can try a flop call here if you have 1 or 2 terrrible players with 400bbs+ I often do, even though im sure its prolly bad lol

River couldn't be more of a value bet if it had value bet please tattooed on its forehead, and lived at value-bet house, value-bet road, value town, V4L B3T and had just sent a first class parcel (a giant wooden carving of the words VALUE BET) with Value Bet couriers to its only relative Auntie (value) betty.

lord LOLdemort.
set of twoooooooooos snap flat though init?

a) bink one time
b) move into sick new flat (requires a)

The spell I want to answer Q1 with doesn't have the correct description to match it to!

Travesty.

Shush! Don't let him fix it

I agree. Maybe it was a farcical move on my part to keep people guessing . That or a big typo .

Keep the answers coming guys!

sick level imo

i want to jam the turn now.

this is deffo what id be thinking. that or folding, seeing as i doubt he will continue with river bluffs given u look like 2p and stacks are not good....

yeh jam turn probs (i don't think we can fold), but as played im calling off the river.

River is a trivial check behind I think.  A couple of hands that are worse probably call a small bet on the river but not enough and you don't want to be cry calling a check raise here.  I don't really like the bet on the turn either.  One of the benefits of your bet on the flop is that it is likely to help you get a hand with decent showdown value to the river cheaply so I would just take it. 

Another point worth bearing in mind is that you should be planning what you are doing on each street in advance so when you make the flop or turn bet you need to be aware that you are putting yourself in a tough spot on the river by inflating the pot.  For example if the river is  what do you do when he makes a £25 bet.  It is tough to fold getting 6-1 for your money or even when the the  comes what happens if he shoves or bets £50.  Again it is a tough decision that wouldn't happen if you checked behind on the turn because the pot would only be £55 so it is much easier to fold only getting 2-1 on a £50ish bet on the river.  Hope this make sense but the basic point is to plan your bets around later streets

yeh instinctively i pretty much snapped checked behind the river, but ofc 2nd guessed myself when he showed  and thought i could've got 30-50 worth or value perhaps. But yeh overall i realised that it's still a check now, ty. Good post btw, i see your point about bloating pots and making tough decisons for myself. Althought I think the river decisions you mentioned are actually pretty trivial too. He leads £25 on a river, Im snap folding. He bets 50 or shoves on the river, Im also folding.

I think it works the other way round too. Bloating pots like this actually make it possible for me to make my opponents make really tough decisions. E.g. if i'd checked behind the turn, and he snap checks a river and I realised that he has 9x or 88 or 7x, the pot is only £54 and more difficult to get him off these hands because I've checked the turn. So maybe in a different spot I could "plan for future streets" by barrelling the turn with the intention of making the pot big enough so I can 1.3x pot shove the river for example. Ppl don't mind calling off £20- £40 if they're "probably beat but..." whereas you can apply so much pressure with a £150 river bet. Even if people know you're capable of doing that, they fold on earlier streets because they don't want to face that tough decision with a marginal hand. Fwiw I know most ppl on here are online players and think that live players at these stakes don't fold. But they actually do a lot more than ppl think. Or maybe I'm just awesome. I did a bluff once.

As I'm writing this I don't think it's making much sense actually but I don't know how to phrase it. Do you know what I'm trying to say?

Thanks for the replies fellas, interesting analysis.

Fwiw I just flatted as I thought no value in shoving as nothing worse calls, villian flipped  for a spaz out with air.

yeh - i dont think he would've called with AK. That means that flatting is the optimum line. wpwp.

actually as a touni noob i'd be quite interested to know what the bottom of our shoving range should be in this spot with 12bbs.

Also, how many bbs would it take to make AKss an open rather than a shove? Would this change for AA?

it vary's but i reckon its about 17-18bb i think

ty

ship the cheese.

K, reveal is now THIS TUESDAY at 7pm. Will edit thread when I get home

yay. EXCITED.

also fwiw i think this is a fold pre. and i'd bet the fop.

[draws that got there]

Hi Alex, I think with the 84 hand, its relatively standard to call. I often go for thin value raises and on certain boards will raise 2nd pair for value but thought on this board he had mainly draws that got there and were beating me and draws that missed.

only 89 surely? He has 2pair soooo often here I really think you've missed value here.

Sometimes he will have 2 pair but with the scaryish board I thought he would c/c these and if he did bet for value I thought he would fold to a raise.

Just because he'd probably fold to raise doesn't mean you shouldn't raise. Would you ever bluff raise the river in this spot? I'd imagine so, and I think he'd call it off with 2pair sometimes. There's always 34 as well.

Thoughts on my river raise and sizing? It was in no way to induce and was expecting a call like 1000x that I thought he'd raise as I really thought he would only 3bet shove the nut flush in this spot.

I'd expect a call or fold 100% too. Oh well.

Thoughts on my river raise and sizing?

I LOVE IT

This sucks. More player info? Whats the buyin for this tourney as well? Need something to go on because this line is weird.

If we assume he raises AQ, AA and QQ pre, then we lose to 66, 33, A6, flushes and straights. Obv.

In a 4way pot, if he is reasonable, he's probably not checking 66, or A6. He'd also probably bet Axhh. However he could be terrible so it's hard to say.

He'd check 33, and all his xx hh hands. I'm going to rule out 45o. 33 is unlikely because there's only 1 combo left.

Would this player semi bluff with a flush draw on the turn? With no reads I have to stereotype the sort of players in the comp, I'd say unlikely. He's limped in pre. If he's limping with suited connectors instead of raising, it means he wants to see a flop for cheap etc etc, hit it hard, make his flush or his straight and then get paid. These players generally don't semibluff OTT with draws. they cawwwwwl.

So I think the only thing he has here that we lose to is 66 and 33. 66 is possible but made less likely because he a) may raise pre  and b) would probs bet the flop. There's 3 combos of 66 and 1 of 33. Everything else is worse two pairs, one pairs and bluffs. I would call. Then get shown Aces and fuck my life.

i think i'm with you Dr. Leno. I'm pretty sure this is never a bluff. So we have to think about hands he would play like this for value. Given your river line with the 84 hand (which I really don't understand), he has to think you have a very strong hand or a bluff when you raise to 83. So would he 3bet jam the river with a set or straight? I don't think so. He has to have a flush. What flush combos do we beat?  85hh is the only one. Even that he may not take this river line with. If your flatting $12 with the 2nd nut straight OTR in the 84 hand, he has to think that to raise this river (which is on a vsimilar board texture), you have the nut straight or better (or a bluff). So for him to 3bet jam, if he is logical, game theory dictates he has a flush. And probably a good one. Forget about the price you're getting on the river. This is a flush 100% and there's one combo that you beat, and loads you don't. Fold.

A lot of this is based on the assumption that he is not a complete spas and has paid attention to your play in the previous hands. The thing that might change my mind is that you said he's come out with weird river value lines, but without more detail as to what they've been, I didn't take that into my thought process too much. Good post.

in order to analyse this hand properly, we're going to need the full HH from the 62o hand. Including all soulreads and thought processes.

raiseydaisey. you defo get called by worse. c/r turn is where his range is polarised imo. it's almost never 2pr, sometimes a set but not often. set over set is cooler neway, 250bbs has to go in. he either has a flush or airrrr. jam.