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5611  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 06, 2006, 11:03:38 AM
There is already an organisation for professionals.

So what?

So there is already a voice for the professionals. Any issues which concern all poker players can be addressed by both organisations giving a stronger voice. Any issues which fundamentally only affect amateurs can be addressed by APAT.

...as per my original post, what are the issues fundamentally only affect amateurs?

I think the most obvious thing is being able to participate - something which the amateur tour is looking to remedy. Other issues such as prize structures and deal making affect both but what an amateur would want could be different from what a professional would want.

Even when an issue to help amateurs is also one which affects professionals, having an emphasis on the amateurs needs will provide a bedrock for the future of poker - the grass roots of any sport, game or activity are what fuels it's long term growth and stability.
5612  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 06, 2006, 10:51:20 AM
There is already an organisation for professionals.

So what?

So there is already a voice for the professionals. Any issues which concern all poker players can be addressed by both organisations giving a stronger voice. Any issues which fundamentally only affect amateurs can be addressed by APAT.
5613  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 06, 2006, 10:37:58 AM
There is already an organisation for professionals.
5614  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 05, 2006, 11:01:41 PM
...The difference is that your Chairman was your boss, so its all well and good him asking for you to provide the solution, the posters on here are your customers, it is not up to them to bring you the solution....

I think any organisation needs to stay in touch with what their market wants, how it does this might vary from industry to industry and organisation to organisation - but failing to take what the customer wants into consideration can be shown by the problems Marks & Spencer had for example.

A freeroll does provide a solution to the registration problem, but this would presumably be through Pokerstars, I would expect a considerable commitment from them to APAT if they were able to benefit from extra people signing up to them in this way. The structure of the freeroll might be better served by a shootout than a freezeout also as this would provide a basic level of standard of poker playing to register, but it wouldn't mean having to beat a massive field to get there.
5615  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 04, 2006, 11:22:51 AM
Jon, we see those players being our core market

However it is not, in the stated aims, ONLY for them

anyway, bear with us, as tikay says we'll get there

That was the intention of providing that quote - use of the word possibly suggested that this would represent the core market (but not the whole market).
5616  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 04, 2006, 11:13:31 AM
Quote
Do you comply with the APAT's original stated intention is questionable. The answer is probably not

I think you seem to be making stuff up. Where does it say on their website that only fish who have never played live before are allowed to play...

This is where it says it

...APAT is aimed squarely at the recreational player, possibly moving for the first time into a live environment...

That's not to say that they would be fish.
5617  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 04, 2006, 08:25:09 AM
...  blondeite Jon MW has been pretty supportive in his replies, so much so, that in conversation with a few blondes yesterday & today, they actually thought he ... was part of APAT. This is not so (so far as I know!), &, I hope I don't give offence here but I don't think I know the Member. Just thought I'd clear that up. Can't be too careful!

 

Sorry, no, apart from being a member I have nothing to do with APAT.

I'm just an individual with a view as to what is in the best interest of APAT. The pro/am debate is something which will define the future and direction of the Tour part of APAT and as such is an issue which I believe is worth defending. I did put at the end of one of my posts that I felt sorry for the people who actually have to make the decisions, this was deliberately to distance myself from the organisers as I was aware that I had contributed quite a few posts on the subject but please accept my apologies if anybody felt mislead.

BTW the only other issues which have been brought up which I believe need looking at for future events are the registration process and the length of time between a tournament and it's registration. Some people would prefer longer than a month to ensure that they can make arrangements for time off work and good hotel and travel deals.

On a more general note - shouldn't there be a FAQ section on the APAT website itself for those members of APAT who are foolish enough not to be blondeites?
5618  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 08:42:27 PM
Wow Jon, 40% of your total amount of posts on this forum are in this thread.

Is it something you feel strongly about? Cheesy



You picked up on that?  Cheesy

I only really registered on Blonde to see Jen's photo's on the live updates.  Cool
5619  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 08:33:24 PM
So I've been lurking without voicing my opinions so farTo be honest I dont give a flying hoot if a "Pro" joins and plays. Hell ill play 5 pros if im getting a $150 satelitte with 120 runners for a prize pool and an added EPT/WSOP/WPT seat. The beauty of Poker is anyone can beat anyone at anytime pretty much.

I really don't know where all this negativty is coming from. The founders have set it up like this none of the haters bothered to get off there arse and set up an amatuer association so who are they to complain.

I signed up within 5 minutes of the post by TightEnd ( Im hoping I get a low membership number for this) and don't really care if all I get is the chance to register for these tournies £10 for anyone who can afford to GAMBLE is pennies.

Good luck to APAT hopefully I can sneak my mouse into clicking my way into Birmingham and if I do I hope to see you all there.

..APAT is aimed squarely at the recreational player, possibly moving for the first time into a live environment...

There is nothing wrong per se with tournaments of this structure where amateurs could play against pros, but the stated aims of the APAT are to represent grass roots players. If this tour ends up being dominated by the middle tier of poker players this will force out the purely recreational player who it has been stated that it is aimed at - and this will happen if it was just left to market forces to decide.

It's not negativity it's striving for clarity in a healthy, structured debate which we hope can only aid those in the decision making process.   Cool
5620  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 08:11:11 PM
...simple solution. on the registration form you should be asked for your employment details.if you are self employed you should be asked if the self employment provides a greater anual income than the poker.
if you cannot enter employment details but feel you are not a pro you should be able to write in appeal to the APAT

The example of Rob Yong was used. anyone who's played against him knows he's a very good player indeed. he's not under any finacial pressure when playing for £75 and unless you get lucky, there are plenty of people on this forum who are in big trouble against a player like him. He's definitely an amature by every criteria you can come up with but is a strong enough player that he can compete in WSOP / EPT / WPT events and have a serious shot. some people seem to be suggesting someone like him should declare their previous 12 months winnings. with respect, thats none of anyones business but him and his accountant and the idea that a potential player should be scrutinised to that extend is daft.

The only income details that have been suggested to be used are tournament winnings - and these are in the public domain.

This seems to be significantly less intrusive then asking for their employment details and whether they earn more from any self employment than poker!

The field for this event should be strong and in no way would I suggest that it should just be a shoal of fish, but as has been mentioned previously, 'A line must be drawn somewhere', so that it truly represents an opportunity for the grassroots player encouraged to enter a (for them) big tournament.
5621  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 06:47:31 PM
Well it seems as arbitrary as anything else Bongo.... Amount of money and professional status have no bearing on skill level, imo. But if we want to discriminate then there are always people who are going to be caught on the other side. Which is why a hard an fast rule will never work.

Im sure the APAT team have been through all of this already and such came up with the common sense ruling. Anyone who is unsure of their status can contact the team for clarification. Anyone caught breaking the spirit of the rule will be disqualified and removed from the tour.

Simple.

I think that a technical definition is needed for clarity, but that the common sense interpretation of this definition should be done by the APAT for the good of poker. It is already in the APAT's rules that the final say over whether someone is eligible is down to APAT so a definition wouldn't be a hard and fast rule to abide by, it would just be a guideline to help prevent confusion and hopefully give an objective, measurable criteria which people can judge for themselves whether they are eligible.
5622  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 06:43:52 PM
If someone is often buying in directly to high profile 'majors', like WSOP, EPT, WPT and even european ranking main events then they are not an amateur.

What if they are just very rich? We should penalise them for that?

This is why it should go on tournament winnings or ranking points. It could be argued that travelling around Europe and the World entering poker tournaments is not the habits of a grassroots amateur, but if someone is doing this and not being very succesul I would rather classify them as a Gentleman Amateur rather than as a rubbish professional and I don't think that their eligibility to join an amateur tour should be prejudiced by this.
5623  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 04:56:54 PM
Rob Yong is far far above amateur standard. The money/EPT entry would not be an incentive for him. He seems keen to enter.

Mr Yong is someone who I respect greatly as a business man and as a player. He is precisely the type of player who this definition is needed for. With an ambiguous definition people could argue whether he is an amateur or a semi-pro, with a concrete definiton he is likely to be one of the players who's eligibility would see-saw from year to year as his poker winnings rose and fell.

Although it is slightly incongruous for someone to keep on changing whether they are classed as an amateur or not it would provide a workable compromise between barring very good amateur/semi-pros for good (a bit harsh for them), and allowing a virtual free for all (a bit harsh for the majority of grassroots players).
5624  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 04:51:29 PM

..but would he enter ??...very unlikely...but if the rules say the odd pro running dry are "let in " good luck to them...sitting on the left of Mickey would be a pleasure Grin


Would he enter? That's not the point.

"Sitting on the left of Mickey would be a pleasure Grin" I couldn't agree more!

Providing "Grass roots" amateurs with a chance to play against some of the top players, in a comp with a good structure would be a great idea.

As a pro he couldn't enter, have i missed something?

If eligibility was defined by a limit on tournament winnings in the 12 months prior to the registration of the first event of the season.
5625  Poker Forums / The Rail / Re: Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT) on: August 03, 2006, 04:32:40 PM
Defining status by winnings/rankings is farcical because of the very nature of tournament poker.

Mickey Wernick is the quintessential poker pro, he won the European rankings, and a lot of ££££s last year. He has been a professional player longer than most of us have been alive.

He had an 18 month period in 2003/2004 when he won nothing and couldn't make a final table.

During that period, he would have been eligible!

I don't think it would be possible to get away from a definition which wasn't in the end self policing and reliant on players own judgement.

This would have made him eligible, but would a player in that position make the implicit admission that he expected his bad spell to last for the next 12 months? Wouldn't he be more interested in rebuilding his poker career in the professional circuit?

But if a pro-fallen-on-lean-times was technically eligible under a tighter definition then they would be allowed to enter. My main emphasis has been my worry about pros and semi-pros sneaking in and dominating, but it's not just about winning. If the occasional pro-fallen-on-lean-times was to enter these amateur tournaments it would add a bit of colour to the proceedings and wouldn't be a wholly bad thing. Especially if they did badly.
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