<Self-righteous Indignation Snipped>

I only sent you off to pokerstove as your attitude of cant hit and fold is wrong and considering you gave nothing of anything to back it up thought it might help.

No, you were being a patronising smart arse.

We are really unlikely to be up against the bigger flush draw. On the flop you should never fold and you are spouting the biggest lost of pish on here since 2006. I know, I know, im gone this time.

Dave have you ever heard of equity or equity calculations?

http://www.cardschat.com/poker-equity.php

Try downloading pokerstove and see how well our hand does against a tight shoving range of sets/ops/bigger fds....

I haven't been on here for a while and don't remember seeing your annoying updates but you seem pretty cock sure of yourself. I have no idea why you are here if you have all the answers and are just here to give us all advice on how to play and point us towards pokerstove etc.

Anyway, the hand - you are missing the point. You are not going to play J7s profitably here ever which is why you should be folding it pre.

The end. Signing off. Over and out. Self-righteous update on its way i'm sure.

HAHAHAHAAH READ MY POST

FFS. Please do whatever you like. My bad, calling SB with shite and the folding the flop when we hit it is indeed good poker.

BUT I LIKES FOLD EQUITY AND TAKING POTS WITHOUT SHOWDOWN

Right, so fold pre. If you do elect to call and flop the effective nuts then call the all-in.

You are the one who has dismissed the possibility that folding J7s in the SB might be the correct thing to do.

Personally I fold pre. I have no idea what you are hoping to happen if you elect to call pre. Calling then folding when you hit the flop hard is worse than calling then folding when you miss the flop the majority of the time. Then there are the times you flop top pair and fold to an allin coz you think you are outkicked or against a set/overpair... We are out of position with about 20BB electing to call and then fold almost every flop against 2 opponents unless it comes JJ7 or villains open fold/check it down with trash hands.

Fold pre

wat are you talking about?

utg doesn't always just open shove.

If you are thinking of folding this hand on that flop then you should be folding pre. What on earth are you hoping to hit when you complete the small blind.

I agree with Mantis. bet-fold > check-call. We hate bet/folding but this line allows us to take down the pot many more times than a check/call.

i figured he'd value bet the river w AA given how iv played my hand and didnt think i needed to bet turn to protect against too many holdings. I thought a slim chance of JJ. Problem with 4betting pre is against villains 5b jamming range pre (deep/ ott of a big 3bet)is i think im in tez shape if we get the lot in.

If his 3-bet range is only 2% - does he ever 5-bet and if so is it really only AA/KK ? I would be interested to know the answer to that. If that is the case then you can fold to the 5-bet and would lose less in the hand than the way you have chosen to play it by betting the river. I still don't really get playing the hand as though he has aces and then betting the river.

I guess we have villain on AA/QQ/AK. I'd 4-bet KK pre but I'm struggling to see the point of betting the river as he can just as easily have AA at the end of the hand as he does at the beginning from how it has played out. If there are only two possible outcomes here and he calls and wins with AA or calls and loses with QQ then whats the point of betting at all ?

maybe u guys are right but i hate how important this pot is to our stack size and thus not getting all the money in here is horrid.

I have been trying to understand the c/r turn line. Obv c/r turn doesn't stop the A falling river but it does kill the hand a bunch of times.

Are we happy to take this down on the turn when just betting every street makes it much more likely we get all the money in ? I don't really understand why we risk giving a free river card or risk not putting all our chips in here considering hand strength and stack size.

Durr challenge?

I think this is the equivalent of arranging to meet up in the park after the school bell rings.

River was  

Now what?

Swear a lot, hold your head in your hands and then check/call hoping he bets a busted flush draw - then swear some more as you put on your jacket after he shows A2o.

I don't have any major problem with bet/folding the river. I just don't see it as significantly better than check/call. Villain most likely has a monster here or complete air so I play it passively and get bluffed less often.

People saying check call are off their rockers imo, we have the "not non nut" hand if you will, its the best hand you can have that you dont want to get it in with.

Check-call lets many more hands we beat put more money in and we get to see a showdown. We leave ourselves completely exploitable by bet/folding but lose value to what ? Ax usually bets flop when checked to him. 77/88 maybe.

Stacks mean you only need to bet about 800 and you can put the rest in on the river. Snap a turn shove obviously.