Please stop posting.

I have to say, his posts on this thread are awful.

Bet, because you have a really strong holding relative to how wide a range he assumes you raise with pre and c-bet every flop with. This is the kind of spot where I want to get really stubborn. You have to think about the massive amount of hands he would have been willing to call with preflop and the frequency with which he will not want to give up. Then you also realise that it's now five handed (and blind on blind) and everyone has made a few quid.

All in all, I bet and am not really looking to fold at any point from here. The times he actually turns up with a hand when money goes in are shrug worthy.

when people say i will put u all in, i usually call without looking at the board

"hero checks, villain insta announces "i will put you all in"


Think they call this a live tell.

always a massive weak tell for majority of people that say it. Hence why I said this before any results were known

Sick posting heater.

[If we fire the turn we then have to carry on the bluff and fire the river hoping he'll lay down a weak ace]

If we fire the turn we then have to carry on the bluff and fire the river hoping he'll lay down a weak ace.

He's not calling without an ace but if he's good he might just check raise us on the river putting us in a world of pain.

We've got position in a small pot in the early stages. No need to let this get out of hand.

I certainly agree with the general sentiments of this post, betting the turn would be bad.

I'd take issue with that sentence though. You never HAVE to do anything. If you decided to bluff the turn here and were called, the very worst thing you could do is then auto bet every river card out of some misguided sense of obligation. One mistake should not beget another, you should always reserve the right to reassess after every street / action.

but when you take the latter route he basically plays you perfect every time.

But the route hero has taken has still put him in a tough spot (unless you think it isn't).

No, it is an extremely difficult spot. But I nonetheless believe it's the most profitable way to play it despite that. Sometimes there is little you can do. This deep and against this quality of opposition you have to accept that you'll be left scratching your head every so often. But raising the flop here because it makes the subsequent decision (rake pot / fold to further raise) obvious equates to throwing in the towel. Because if you play in such a fashion you'll only win if you constantly cooler / dog your opponents.

id imagine 99% of the field in this comp will open any pair from any position this deep. I imagine he puts camel on a big pair after his 3x 3bet pre antes. Villain has flopped a set and is trying to get three streets of value imho. For villain to be 3barrell bluffing here to a 3better pre antes in a 5k would be very folly imo. Think hero took the best line.
Do we vbet if checked to on the river?

Why did he donk if he's flopped a set and puts me on a big pair?

I dunno, maybe raising the flop and folding to a 3 bet was the best line.

I'd say over the long haul, just calling down flop and turn and making a decision on river based on final board texture / betsizing / timing tells probably carries more value than raising the flop. In the former scenario you will end up feeling silly every so often, but when you take the latter route he basically plays you perfect every time.

your range looks like AK/AQ/QQ a lot.

huh?! it looks more like we have exactly what we have.  I doubt he's going to try make us fold this, so i fold.

how does our hand look like AA we 3b pre called post and on the turn
range is huge at levels i usually play

this isnt a torny u usually play tho..

i know but u saying people at this level always have a set here and never TT-KK where they like to see a flop without an ace then start the betting

id weight his range to a set or air.  and id guess itd be too reckless to empty the clip with air at this stage where camels range is really KK+ unless they have sufficient history which would make him think he has a good % chance of making him fold out those hands.  as i dont think thats the case, you gotta fold.

Good post.

great thread, I know this is vague question for the MTT guys but what hands if any would u 3-bet with this early in this type of tournament?

In this situation i would 3b approx 0% of my range.

Whats ur reasoning behind this if u dont mind? Apart from the above thread :p

The usual continuation range of the UTG opener (and by 'continuation' I mean call to play the hand not just to set mine or flop TPTK) is AA or KK. So, even if you have AA or KK - flatting will yield the most value over the long run in this situation.

As a tournament progresses, things will change drastically and you can start playing more aggressively as a result. But if you aren't making significant adjustments at the start of a deepstacked (and relatively expensive) live MTT you are essentially lighting money on fire.

[Why wouldn't I try and wind those guys up?]

Mantis, you contribute to this board a lot and I do like your different slant on things and the length and thought you put into your posts.

However I have NEVER seen you back down from a point of view. I think this quite easily be your biggest leak.

I often change my point of view George, although I admit it doesn't come across that way. The way I see things there is often more than one way to play a hand, so for the sake of good discussion I stick to my guns on certain stuff. This gets the clique steaming, and I'm afraid that only encourages me to continue. Look at the first contributions of Flushy and Lloyd to this excellent thread. What a joke. Why wouldn't I try and wind those guys up? Also pls point me to a thread where flushy backs down from a point of view. He's got the same leak as me right?

In this thread I initially thought calling the 4-bet was ok but at the end of the thread I've changed my mind about that. The 3-bet however, I haven't backed down on that yet. Lloyd, everything you posted above remains true if you 3-bet another 275 chips, and additionally you get the initative in the hand, and that's important because the majority of the time you flop nothing. So I'm afraid you'll need to keep posting for another 2 yrs to change my mind. I reckon the leak for most of you guy's is ego. Look how easy some of you guys get steamed up about a different point of view. And how you feel the need to flame somebody who isn't flaming you just because they don't snap agree with you. Understand that if I read a post saying eg 3-betting is shit poker here I will be supporting that 3-bet line strongly....because it isn't shit poker.

Phew, relief! I always hoped you were trolling / levelling us all. The idea that you actually felt your start advice to be good was a genuinely perplexing one.

[Please give me the circumstances where we will be happy to get our chips into a big pot by flatting? If the flop comes 10-J-Q rainbow? Is that likely?]

You're kind of missing the point Mantis. By 3-betting this hand this deep and this early we make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot but it becomes easy to lose one. Flatting is also best for deception.

I don't know if you ever play live tournaments or ones where you start with 200x cps you talk about people 3 and 4 betting light but this just doesn't happen often in live tournaments. If people are opening wide, fine. I'd rather 3-bet 910cc than AK here. Let them raise with Ax and we can get paid when we hit and villain has AJ/A10/AQ etc that he would have passed to a 3-bet.

Also, your jab about makeup makes no real sense as staked MTT players should always be in makeup since profit is instantly split.

I don't miss points Greek. And that's because I accept points even if they don't come from my fanboy friends. I reckon you stand much more chance of missing points if you give up reading an 8 page thread on page 4. But you prob don't agree with that either. We make it hard for ourselves to win a big pot if we 3-bet? Please give me the circumstances where we will be happy to get our chips into a big pot by flatting? If the flop comes 10-J-Q rainbow? Is that likely? The truth is we will just be happy to win a pot this early with this hand and don't really want a big pot to develop. It is easier to win a pot vs one oppo with position, and the pot is more likely to get bigger if it's multi-way. It is easy to lose a big pot if you 3-bet pre? Why is it? 3-betting another 275 chips commits you to stacking off with one pair does it? Your points only have more credibility than mine if you know your oppo has A-A and the flop comes K-high. Let's propose another scenario that isn't results orientated, say you flat and invite in the blinds, one of the blinds leads this flop and the opener raises, pls tell me where you are in the hand, and how your pre-flop deception has helped you? FWIW i've never played tournament poker but hope to do so soon.

If we flat we aren't obliged to win all the gold in the one pot postflop. We can just play deepstacked with loads of money behind, in position, with a good hand when our preflop decision means our hand will compare very favourably to our opponent (s) range (s). Sometimes we'll flop massive and want to shovel chips into the pot. Sometimes we'll flop fuck all and fold to one bet on the flop. Sometimes we'll end up somewhere inbetween and have to think our way through the hand and make a couple of decisions here and there based on board texture, the actions of our opponent (s), etc.

The sad part is that I feel like I've been posting the same type of responses to you for nigh on two years now.

EDIT: Also lol disclaimer: I am not staked by Flushy, do not want to be staked by Flushy! Seriously, how is any of that relevant in any way, shape, or form?

Yeah, I think it's a fold to the 4 - bet without previous history. You're putting in too much of your stack when even the times an A or K put you ahead you can't be certain of the opponent doing all their gold with the part of their range that a flopped TPTK beats. The factors are just working against you.

The flop bet is an even bigger mistake once we get there. You've created a classic WA / WB situation. Betting narrows their range, and you really don't want to do that here.

[especially if you're the type of player who looks like you want to take charge of the game and play your button strongly.]

I think 5-betting pre would be ridiculous. There's too much focus on the pre-flop play in this hand anyway. You can't argue with 3-betting the A-K, that's a given. Calling the 4-bet from an experienced player is also fine, especially if you're the type of player who looks like you want to take charge of the game and play your button strongly. And I would imagine Stuart isn't overly shy on the button. If the opener has table prescence and thinks the button doesn't need to be strong that extra 600 or whatever he 4-bets buys him a lot of credit for later in the hand.....He must have A-A right?......so actually believing such a player can only have A-A is pretty dumb.

Anyway, the pre-flop action isn't the problem in this hand. Yes, Stuart hits his king but that doesn't mean he needs to bet it after villain checks. That is when the pot starts getting out of control and that is where the focus should be in this hand. That problem isn't solved by 5-betting A-K at 25/50.

 

Yes

Is everything a shove?

When stacks are this short and it's three handed, a loooooooot of things are.

WHY ARE YOU ALL LAUGHING!!??

Imagine how much money you'd make now if the games were still like they were in early 2006 Tribecca. 

When it's this close, just get them in. Your assumptions can always be a little off (due to people running good / bad over small sample sizes), and it doesn't take much error either way to make folding / shoving good / bad.