OK

I do not know the individual involved and as such have no comment to make about him.

My post is related to society generally.

People who commit these crimes make up a very small section of the population. These deviants have no place in our society and as such, are removed from it, the moment their actions are uncovered.

What strikes me though is the immense power these individuals have to infect our thoughts even when they are gone. I have not read a post on this thread that condones these crimes. As such, and as a community, we are united.

There are vast legions of honest and genuine people in this world. People who have ethics and principles and who want a decent society in which to live. When cases like this are highlighted it chips away at the foundation of our society. People become suspicious and wary of others. Feelings of anger, violence and frustration bubble to the surface and people become insular and defensive.

It is perfectly natural to feel betrayed by this man if you considered him to be a Friend. My hope is that this initial anger will subside and it does not have any lasting affect on peoples view of others.

Not long ago my local Wacky Warehouse prevented parents watching their children play because of this problem. How can this be?

Every Muslim seems to be a terror suspect.

Just last night as I walked home from a local poker game at 3:00 a.m. the lone woman in front kept breaking out into a trot as she was clearly scared to death of my presence. I felt terrible.

When you are accused of being a mug to trust people who then behave like this it is natural to want to prevent it happening again. You baton down the hatches and close society out. This is where community spirit may eventually go, or where it is already going.

I would like to say this.

This individual had no place in your society and now he is gone. Once initial anger has subsided it is important to move forward, stronger and more determined than ever that the flag of decency should be waved mightily as you go. Do not allow a man such as this to have power over your thoughts and how you live your life. We are not mugs to trust each other, we are just people.

I agree with this sentiment

I don't necessarily agree that his call is poor.

I believe that poker enthusiasts place a bit more emphasis on the mathematics of the situation in tournament play than they need to.

If you grind out a decent profit on the daily cash game scene then probability and long-term profitability are your bread and butter. However, if you carry this mentality forward into tournament play, particularly in the early stages, you will be doing yourself a dis-service.

It is hardly relevant whether the general concensus feels a certain call was "poor" or not. A call has been made. Your tournament is over.

I have a hard time appreciating the concept of long-term profitability in tournament play. A particular tournament begins, finishes, and then the universe re-sets itself.

What occurs in an individual tournament is exclusive to that particular event.

For instance, Jamie Gold could fail to cash in every tournament he enters over the next decade (and probably will), but he will still be a profitable tournament player. It is notoriously difficult to be a winning tournament player because you can't call it a day when you're ahead. You have to get in there and gamble from start to finish. If you take your foot off the accelerator you are doomed.

Reasonable players know this and so when a tournament starts, and the value of their tournament life is low, they are looking for opportunities to gamble straight away. A marginal advantage is sometimes as good as it is going to get. When the tournament gets deeper very good players continue with this aggressive gambling mentality at the expense of their more conservative opponents.

Knowing this means that you as a player can give aggressive opponents enough rope to hang themselves early on. So I like the limp raise move here. But only with the goods. As Boldie said, it is starting to look a bit weak. So a decent move with strength then.

As always though it is vital that your opponents and their individual personalities are appreciated early. In this example Mr. Y "doesn't like limpers". With that knowledge I limp with big hands all day long here, when the blinds are still small, and let Mr. Y try to bully me out of the pot. So rather than focussing on the maths I think good tournament play requires you to focus on the person! A will HE fold if I check raise all-in mentality....rather than...a am I denying him the correct odds to call one.

OK

Firstly, I think the thought process you have here is an excellent one. You have assessed how your opponents are playing and have formulated a plan to combat them. Good stuff.

However, three things to note.

1. POSITION - The limp, re-raise all-in is a powerful move. However, I do think that it looses its effectiveness the later you are at the table. If you employed the same tactic under-the-gun, for example, I think that the 6's would fold here. Limping early gives a player the best chance of encountering a raise of some sorts when holding a big hand. I know this, you know this, and all the other players know this. When you limp in the cut-off you have just three players to act behind you. If you hold a big hand here you would need to be pretty certain that you are going to get the raise you are looking for. Actually, you are certain of this, but the point is that the button doesn't know this is what you are thinking.

He simply sees someone limp in the cut-off and feels he can take the pot down with his pair. If he was a seasoned player, was acutely aware of his current table-image and gave you credit for being a trappy player he may well fold. But that is a lot of ifs and this is the internet.

Because you employed this tactic in a late position he simply doesn't believe you (and rightly so), and feels reluctant to muck the best hand.

2. TIMING - Again, the later in the tournament this tactic is employed the more effective it becomes. In these big events and with a couple of thousand starting chips players have a strong inclination to gamble. Later on people still want to gamble in order to win but these feelings are tempered somewhat with a fear of losing. Stealing or re-stealing later becomes far more effective because of this. So if you did this when you were both sitting on 50k, again he would probably fold.

Right here and now he believes he has the best hand, he took the initiative in raising and he is looking to gamble. This combination means that he will call.

Even so, the situation is far from hopeless and you get the chance to gamble with K-J. So not a disaster.

3. HAND STRENGTH - You say that you would have made the same play with AA or JJ. All I can say is what a perfect strategy if this was actually your holding. If you had AA, you limp, you get the raise you expect and you sucker him in. Bloody good poker!

Great thought process then. But without the goods I think it is too late and too early if you see what I mean.

Anyway enough of the banter already.

Let me make a couple of points.

Firstly, I do agree with Dubai that passive post-flop play is certainly an option to explore. It is a tactic that can pay dividends against aggressive players under certain circumstances. Personally I would be looking for a more inviting board than this though.

However, the crucial point is that in order to employ this tactic it is essential to know where you're at with the hand. If you are supremely confident that you have the best hand then playing passively with this hand is ok, if a little risky. You can then allow the hand to progress feeling confident that you are in charge of the situation. You are the trapper and your opponent is being trapped.

However, this is not how Horneris feels during this hand. She freely admits that she was lost in the hand.

My wife, who is an avid (and bloody good) player. Often gets frustrated when she plays big pocket pairs like this. Not really knowing where she is but not wanting to let them go.

Horneris asked fellow members for an alternative.

I think that whenever you are struggling to know where you are in a hand you should turn the tables on your opponent.

Rather than being faced with a series of awkward questions on the flop, turn and river, you should answer your opponents question with one of your own. By pushing on the flop you avoid putting yourself in awkward situations later on in the hand and the only person with a tough decision to make now is your opponent. You will probably kick off your tournament with a nice pot win, feel that you bossed the hand, and show the other players that you mean business.

This is an alternative.

Secondly, I am kinda new to this forum but do enjoy a bit of poker analysis. However, I have seen other posts suggesting that this section is underused due to fellow members feeling obliged to have a pop at each other if they think that person is "wrong". I think this is a bit counter-productive really.

I never want to stop learning and improving. By listening to other views, whether I agree with them or not, means that this goal is inevitable.

Anyway good luck all.

I caught the flush on the turn.

Thanks for the feedback.

Firstly, I have never read Doyle Brunson's Super System. A bit criminal I know. So inaccurate read.

Whether you agree with my post or not is largely irrelevant.

However. If this is "classic" play as you describe and advocated by the world's most successful poker player there's little wonder you disagree with it.

Let me guess...you're one of those players that always get their aces cracked right?


By the way. Playing me. I put you all-in on the river. Are you going to call with K-K?

OK

Now this is why I asked for advice. I believe I am improving all the time with my reads, however I do believe I am falling down in the way I play the cards. I am well aware that I misplayed the hand. I am well aware that it went some way to costing me my seat in the EPT. I am well aware that, with hindsight, I would have been better cashing it in!!! But thats not what its all about is it? I took the seat and gave it my best shot and...hopefully..have used the experience as a learning experience. Its a very steep learning curve. Hence why I asked for advice.

Lets remember that this part of the forum is for advice on hand analysis. Not poking fun etc. If thats what you come on the board for, all well and good...but I believe there is a post somewhere on here from a Mod stating the do's and don'ts for this section.....

Anyway, I'd like to thank those that have offered constructive advice.

Listen, the thing about poker is this. Hand analysis and opinions about how I would have played it or what someone else would do, are just that..opinions. People are all different. No-one thinks alike. This is what makes the world such an interesting place.

People may poke fun at the way you play a given hand.That's pretty naive. You seem to come across a good deal of "poker players" at the moment who think that if someone doesn't play a hand on their terms that "fish" doesn't understand the game. Maybe, but that fish is a live opponent at your table. If you don't open up to how that person thinks then you put yourself at a disadvantage.

Much better to absorb how someone else plays out a scenario and learn from it rather than pour scorn on it. This is how you become a better poker player.

Everyone who plays poker is on a learning curve period. There is no right or wrong way.

I really couldn't care less what other players think about me but I am keen to learn how they think. This is a good combination.

The best advice is to play like a gentleman, show a healthy respect for everyone at the table, and have some fun playing a really good game!

Actually the best poker advice is...

"If you want to live you cannot be afraid to die!".........Amir Vahedi

So, I would say that you played the hand fine and it's good that you want to learn how others think.

But that's just an opinion

Which could be wrong of course!!! 

Can I amend my above post to include...

It could also be some clueless bugger.

Thankyou

Hello There.

The crux of this hand is the betting on the flop.

You raise a goodly amount pre-flop with a pair of kings and get one desirable caller. Everything going to plan so far.

Your opponent limped into a multi-way pot and then flat-called your raise. You must assume that you have the best hand at this time. You now own this pot. You are in the driving seat.

The flop is a good one for kings against a single opponent. You quite rightly fire out a bet to which he re-raises double??

This is where you must make your decision. If not...you will proceed to CALL his re-raise, CHECK-CALL his turn bet and CHECK-CALL his river bet. Hey, this is supposed to be your pot.

There are plenty of positive ways to use 9,600 tournament chips but calling and check-calling with Kings on this board is not one of those ways. It is always desirable to be the one asking the questions at the table. Put your opponent to the test. If you cannot do this then save your chips for a situation when you can.

My advice:

You have 2 choices.

1. ALL-IN - In the end you pretty much call all your chips into this pot. So rather than using your chips weakly use them aggressively and use them on the flop. So when he re-raises you on the flop announce all-in. This is your pot, you raised it and if he wants to play silly buggers and min raise you on a bluff or a draw then he better be pre-pared to pay for it.

If he calls then ok you may have the best hand. If you don't have the best hand you are not drawing dead at least. The important thing is that this is a no-limit hold'em tournament and you are putting the decision to your opponent. Will he call you on a draw after 8 hands for his tournament life? That's a tough decision, but not a decision that is yours to make. Good poker. This is considerlably better play than calling all streets as the cards get ever worse for your kings. At the very least your table image will be healthy. If you call him down all the way with the worst hand you will look pretty fishy.

2. FOLD - With his min re-raise I would be thinking POCKET 5's. The action thus far fits pocket 5's. He would take a draw card for 1000 on the flop if he was indeed drawing. If he choose to re-raise with a draw he would bang it up there and try and take the pot now. Min re-raise means the flop doesn't scare him. So if he is not drawing and the flop is not scary I am inclined to think he has flopped the boat. This is where you have to know your player and look for tells. If this is your read just fold the kings and live to fight another day.

Good Luck

Mantis

 

 

OK

If you go all-in here he will always call. Why? Because it is his pot. Forget pot-odds. You look at the hand from his perspective. He raised pre-flop with a weak hand and got two undesirable callers. The flop comes Bingo Bango almost Bongo. He bets out drawing to the nuts. You go all-in. You could be going all-in with any draw yourself and as such even his A could be good now, if not the club certainly will be.

But it is more the principle of the thing. If you want to win these events you are not going to let someone push you off a pot if you are the aggressor and drawing to the nuts. If he folds here his table image will be a joke

So first he's saying you've got the nuts just call don't scare off your opponents. Then he's saying if you push with the nuts you're always gonna get called. Well if you're "always" gonna get called which is pretty debatable imo then wtf is he saying to call? We have the nuts FFS we are looking to get maximum value from our hand.

In the hope of making sense.

If you push on the flop you loose the one opponent you have crushed and get called by the one opponent that can end your tournament. Don't forget that this a 3 way pot and our friend has read one of his opponents for the flush draw. By flat calling the post-flop bet you maximise your chances of milking two opponents whilst minimising the risks of getting busted out of the tournament by the flush.

Yes, you can certainly push on the flop and get the flush draw to call you. An incorrect call from him maybe, but a call none-the-less. Then you must rely on luck rather than skill to decide your tournament. The rail is littered with players who can boast that they gave their fishy opponents the incorrect odds to call. By flat calling the 1200 you offer the third player, the German, the opportunity to push himself or to call. Both these choices are denied him if you push.

At this point let's call the 1200 and see if the club comes. In doing so let's snag the German up in the hand. If the club does come then that's unlucky, but hey, you are still very much alive in the tournament rather than heading to the bar.

When a blank comes on the turn the Dane may slow down and surrender the pot. Now bet. He is no longer the aggressor you are and he will now fold because if he was going to call a bet he would have pushed himself

If the Dane checks the turn it is correct to bet so that he is denied the free card he desires. We are happy to keep milking the German but are not unhappy to loose the Dane here. I don't particularly want the Dane to call because he can knock me out. The pot is now relatively sizeable. One opponent is drawing dead and one is a live threat.

Playing the hand out this way means that you are in control all the way. You can alternatively just shove on the flop, loose the German and see what happens. Whatever takes your fancy.  

P.s.

Thankyou for the welcome all. Have played with Tikay at a couple of final tables (Walsall). Didn't learn much though.

 

Right Then

The big mistake here is the pre-flop bet

You say that these Viking Nutters..."could hardly let a hand pass without playing it"

You then proceed to bet an amount that serves as a nice pot builder for these very same nutters. The raise of 350 is perfectly fine for a tight table, but not here. By only betting a further 350 into this table you absolutely WILL get a series of callers on drawing hands (such as a suited A or connectors like 8-9 )

The flop comes a drawers paradise....flush and straight drawers a plenty

I do not think pushing or over-betting the flop here is the right advice. Why? Because you played small-ball pre-flop. To start wanging chips around now is not in context with how you are playing the hand and the flop is far from ideal. You will probably get called and you will probably loose the hand by the river. If you aren't already behind now.

My advice. You probably have the best hand pre-flop. The table is loose. Crank it up pre-flop and ask the Scandies a proper question rather than a no-brainer...so bet about 800 and boss the table with the JJs (Rule Britannia and all that). If you get a caller you then have every right to push on that flop. It's now your pot. Big question pre-flop....big question post flop. Raising more probably gets the suited A out of the pot but the 9-9 hangs around....good. You push on the flop the 9's may well call and you win the pot rather than loose it.

After putting in a 350 raise pre-flop and getting more than one caller (with this flop) I would want to keep the pot small-ball with a small stopper bet and hope a draw card doesn't appear on the turn. A Jack or 7 would be nice as well. People may say that this is weak but hey you are not playing this hand aggressively. A 350 raise is not aggressive so why go Kamikaze on the flop.

I have A-7 suited...I call.....goodbye.

The A on the turn slows me down. And so it should. I put people on suited A's pre-flop. Pot building the turn here with another 1200 is not good. But you feel you have to bet again because you committed too much on the flop to stop now. Why not check the turn a get the free river card you have earnt with your betting. Fingers crossed you fill up. The suited A will probably want the freebie as well. You may even win a showdown with JJand of course the J of H on the river is ok as well.

If there is action-a-plenty on the river fold and stay in the tourney.

Another good point is that raising more pre-flop encourages loose players to want to push with hands like 9-9 and take it down due to the extra chippage in the pot. This is good for you because it chases away the rags and gets you heads up with the best of it.

It is never a good idea to play a hand one way and then completely change the context of the hand mid-flight.

I saw someone flat call last night at the final table with -Kc to try and flop a monster....the flop came A-4-8 and he did all his chips to the big blind's 4-8. He played the hand with one expectation but then played the hand like he was the pre-flop raiser instead. No! Small-ball pre-flop....small-ball post-flop is the way to go or big-ball,big-ball whatever you fancy.

Anyway Good Luck man

The crucial thing to remember for winning tournament play is to make the very most out of favourable situations.

How many times do we call a raise with A-Q....miss the flop...and then fold to a continuation bet?....Lots!!

Sometimes the flop will come a seemingly ideal A high and we will do all our chips to A-K

Sometimes the flop will come A-Q-6 and we do all our chips to a set of 6's

And there are an infinite number of variations to the above which creates a lot of negative equity when calling a raise with this type of hand. However, calling 425 to CATCH A FLOP is still a perfectly reasonable play.

Once you have called the 425 that money has gone into the big speculation pot in the sky along with all the other speculative calls you have made pre-flop with A-Q throughout your poker life....So c'mon lets catch a flop with A-Q for once....it's an EPT event for christ's sake.

Low and behold, the poker gods have shown a bit of compassion for once, it is a good day, and the flops descends onto the felt to the sweet melody of Viva Las Vegas.

Lets say the Dane bets out with any hand as would be expected....A-J for example. You go all-in. The German folds. The Dane folds. You win 1200.

There is little point calling raises with A-Q, folding a lot post flop, and then making a meagre 1200 with you flop the nuts.

So flat call here let the German push with his A-K and get well and truely paid for this rare golden moment.

If things don't work out, you get knocked out, so what, you got knocked out anyway, we all get knocked out a lot.

The point is....

YOU GET KNOCKED OUT TRYING TO WIN THE COMPETITION.....NOT SCARED TO LOOSE IT!!!

Good Luck

My Answer:

Firstly, the way you have played this hand is fine. Getting your chips in with the best of it is all that any of us can do.

However, this is my analysis:

Pre-flop you decided to flat call. Thus you have assumed the roll of the caller not the aggressor. You could have decided to re-raise pre-flop and become the aggressor in the hand but decided to see a flop instead. The flop comes Bingo Bango Bongo and you have the coconuts. The pre-flop raiser bets out 1200 which is to be expected. He is still assuming his role as the aggressor and could have any hand. We now know he is betting out in the hope that the club comes (or to take the pot down). Why change your role in this hand now? You have the nuts with a player betting into you and an active player to act behind you. He is betting 1200 that the club comes so just call 1200 and bet that the club doesn't come. Why risk everything right now? You would only push here in the hope that the other players fold and you take the pot.

Don't be scared to play the nuts, you are in charge of this hand. If the club does come you can withdraw from the hand with your tournament life in tact. Don't be fooled into thinking that calling is a weak play here and pushing is strong.

Calling is the aggressive play. You are trying to maximise this opportunity to win the tournament.

If you go all-in here he will always call. Why? Because it is his pot. Forget pot-odds. You look at the hand from his perspective. He raised pre-flop with a weak hand and got two undesirable callers. The flop comes Bingo Bango almost Bongo. He bets out drawing to the nuts. You go all-in. You could be going all-in with any draw yourself and as such even his A could be good now, if not the club certainly will be.

But it is more the principle of the thing. If you want to win these events you are not going to let someone push you off a pot if you are the aggressor and drawing to the nuts. If he folds here his table image will be a joke.

My advice...you called pre-flop in the hope of hitting a flop and proceeded to hit the perfect flop. Just call again here. The German may sense weakness and push with anything, one pair, two pair or a bare queen for example...lovely jubbly.

When a blank comes on the turn the Dane may slow down and surrender the pot. Now bet. He is no longer the aggressor you are and he will now fold because if he was going to call a bet he would have pushed himself. If he pushes, you call, great, same result one less card to come. In addition the German could still be contributing to your tourney winning pot.