Manny has aged terribly. No lateral head movement, slow legs, shoulder rolls all gone.

Hugely overhyped for a guy that far gone. Floyd obv a class above.

The most talented politician in the UK is a woman and it's not even close.

That's not difficult. She's up against 3rd rate politicians and doesn't have to answer any tough questions about cuts or wars. I could look good doing her job.

Yep ideology cos we can't afford it. Going and borrowing money from China to sustain public spending beyond our means is a recipe for financial ruin. And that's exactly what happened. The Tories are building a sustainable economy where we live within our means. Seems sensible.

The work they have done means they can freeze taxes and normal working people will keep more of the money they earn. Not sure what's hard to grasp about why that appeals to generally self interested people. Labour will take more out of your pay packet to pursuit ideology they simply cannot afford.

I am sorry to laugh at Ed but I just imagine him coming up against Putin at the negotiating table. Cameron has demonstrated he is prepared to fight for Britain in Europe and has promised a referendum on what will be a major issue in the next parliament. Ed won't let people decide. I think the Tories offer more scope for self determination and so really more freedom.

Don't think Cameron has shown any fight at all. It's the reason why this campaign is so close. If there was one standout candidate (A Thatcher or a Blair) they'd abs piss this election.

Absolutely this - the present Tory cabinet are simply 3rd rate/borderline incompetent. 

@Mantis You do realise that our deficit is higher than France and Spain?  You do realise that the governnent has doubled the national debt?  You do realise that productivity is lower than 2006?

All day this. Some of the economic facts are being dodged quite dramatically in this election campaign.

The Milibland Brand move is excellent. Ofc it's full of shit but they're not appealing to the type of voter that's quibbling the numbers.

That sort of "subtle as a train wreck" move is precisely why Ed has come back and even more why Tory voters can't understand that he has.

gotcha. i shall add one. vote people. we'll do a scientific and wholly representative sample. ahem

Still, interesting to see.

Should have just done a locked thread with a poll on top.

why locked?

the whole point is to encourage discussion, air views

For the "blondepoker poll" to add to your list

Bazza are you seeing value anywhere in the big one?

Should have just done a locked thread with a poll on top.

john major



(this is accurate by the way, albeit there are often bigger factors at play such as the 2009 financial crash)

Can't really agree with this statement for so many reasons, but it's the perpetual story I've heard from the Tories at this election. It's pretty thin when you look at the history books.

You have picked two bad decisions out of a few I put down.

Rather selective I would say , much like your view on events.

Would you like to answer my question

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

A simple yes or no will suffice , then we can all move on.

No. Well done you. I'm not sure why we had to go through it.

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

Would you like to answer my question Baron or are you just going to say lol.

Bookie, I think your last two posts are lots better than your first two. But I think the point is being missed.

If I were a family member of someone who had died (hypothetically) do you think I'd have questioned what your asking many, many years ago? In fact don't you think I'd have spoken to the fans who went into that middle pen? Do you think id have not spent years trying to work out who was responsible. If id met some of those people do you think id have asked them why they went without a ticket, ask them if they tried to back out of the pen, asked them what it was like and tried to measure their guilt? Do you think you're the first person to ask? If you can assign a minimal % of the disaster on the fans what does it prove? That you're clever? Or that the police are less to blame?

Do you think id then like to wait two and a half decades to finally get to the truth and then be happy to hear on an open forum the view of someone who sat at the other end essentially questioning the level of responsibility that sits with individual fans on the anniversary of the event?

If you want my deeply personal opinion, it's in line with David's post above. But again, I'm not sure why you would need it.

OK, firstly, the actions of Duckenfield were the direct cause of the deaths and the subsequent attempts to cover for him are a disgrace.
But to absolve the late arriving fans of any blame seems disingenuous at best.
There are always a variety of factors at play, as seen a few years earlier when, an official report found that...

"blame should not rest solely with the English fans, and that some culpability lay with the police and authorities."

A lot of people allowed that incident to colour their view of Hillsborough, me included. I'm ashamed of that now. There has been a long fight for justice and I'm pleased that it is now being delivered.

The 96 were all innocent victims of a foreseeable chain of events that SYP should have handled differently. The fans involved in those events at the Leppings Lane gate could have acted differently but it was unsurprising that they acted as they did and it's inappropriate to blame them.

Great post, thanks for being honest.

This thread shows that the actions of the police and the media after the event will never truly be undone. I'm glad they have when it comes to yourself.

It's unreal to me at least.

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.

I know the Independent panel report recently exonerated the fans

I know the Police behaviour and decisions on the day, and the subsequent cover up, was disgraceful. It is rightly and clearly the cause of the disaster, their actions on the day

There's no lack of respect from me towards the families who have campaigned long and hard since 1989

However the Taylor report stated that a minority of fan behaviour was an "exacerbating factor". The HIP certainly tells us that the causative effect of this was insignificant though.

Trying to find nuance on here around these issues without people getting upset looks understandably difficult.

   

Rich a poster has come on at around the time of the anniversary saying that the recent reports exonerating the fans doesn't sit comfortably with him. I guess that there's a debate here, (if we really must have it) but surely you can see this OP is going to offend and that defending it with "well I need to stay true to myself" after posting it around the anniversary. Just lol.

I have heard from HJC and HFSG, and I, like Kin, have spent a long time trying to understand what happened, and can only imagine what people have been through.

Hearing that your other half saw things that were an eye opener (may as well have stuck an exclamation in there and a wink), is that finding nuance?


Please don't now shift the blame on those of us now getting frustrated.

You are probably my favourite poster on blonde mate, but on this one we're miles apart.

Clinton has stated since that the one thing he loses sleep over repeatedly is this. Unreal that we knew so much and did so little.