I didn’t know John well but I’d been playing at the Vic the last few months and spoke a few times to him, listened to a few stories and did battle in a few cash pots. In fact my biggest pot won was against John when his flopped straight with 64s lost to my turn and river quads 9’s. He just smiled and said “you needed that river”.

Could actual see he was getting worse and worse health wise.

RIP John.

I recall John telling me about this hand and he wasnt so gentlmanly when telling me either ;-)

He loved going to the Vic after many of hsi regular blood transfusions or therapy sessions and I know he missed going to Vegas and The WSOP over the past few years but he just wasnt physically strong enough to make long overseas trips

Hi All

I deeply regret informing the forum of the passing of John Gale yesterday on Monday 18 November 2019 following a long illness

He was not only one the best players to have emerged over the years from The UK but was also as his  poker nickname sggests a perfect gentleman at the tables.

He will be sorely missed and hope your thoughts condolences sympathies and best wishes along with mine are with his wife Shirley and family at this time

RIP my dearest friend John Gale

I hope this post wil be discussed despite Harry's statement that it's not intended to be discussed. I thik it's an interesting subject.

The reason for this post not to be discussed is primarily because it is likely to quickly drift away from the core content which is whether or not organizations such as The WPT and FTP should be actively promoting events in illegal jurisdictions. If it can stick to the main point then by all means lets discuss whether you can trade morals for money.

Re: World Poker Tour (WPT) Event in Northern Cyprus Sept 2009

Having recently arrived in Las Vegas, I was eagerly anticipating playing in the $25k buy in WPT championship event. In fact I have played in many WPT events over the years and to date have never missed the main April Bellagio event but suddenly found myself faced with a moral dilemma that will most likely lead to my being unable to support any future WPT events. Not a great loss to the WPT I must say but nonetheless it makes me question their lack of moral integrity.

The reason for this is basically down to my Cypriot ethnic origins as I was both surprised and shocked to discover that a WPT sanctioned event is scheduled for Northern Cyprus sometime in September later this year. Whilst I feel it is admirable that The WPT wish to spread their brand name to overseas venues I felt I had to write to them in order to ask why they have chosen to hold an event (or sanction an event) that is going to be held in Northern Cyprus which is currently deemed illegal internationally, not officially recognized and containing an occupying force of some 40000 foreign Turkish troops. I also felt strongly that I had to make the general poker public aware of this morally unjustifiable decision of The WPT so am posting this to various poker forums.

You may or may not know some of the history behind the island but for background information I will include a brief outline below.

In 1974 after a suspected coup attempting to unify Cyprus with Greece, Turkey invaded Cyprus (to give you an idea of how one-sided this invasion was it would be rather like the USA invading Hawaii). They took over approximately 40% of the island of Cyprus and thousands of Cypriots died in the conflict not to mention the hundreds of thousands that were displaced having their homes and lands illegally seized.

To this day 40% of the island still remains under illegal occupation.

In 1983 this separated section of Cyprus unilaterally declared independence from the rest of the island and is now known as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

This republic is NOT recognized by ANY country ANYWHERE in the world except for Turkey and as such means that it is heavily dependent on Turkey for economic support. (There are numerous United Nations Resolutions concerning Cyprus and condemnations of Turkey and the illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus but I shall not cite them here). In Addition the only direct/non-stop flights that exist to Northern Cyprus come from Turkey so any flights from anywhere else in the world must first land or touch-down in Turkey before going on to Northern Cyprus. Visitors to The Northern Part of Cyprus must also acknowledge the falsely claimed sovereignty of the Northern Territory as part of the entry visa requirements.

Subsequent to the invasion Turkey still maintains an army of approximately 40000 troops on the island and still occupies approximately 40% of the island which rightfully belongs to the (Southern) Republic of Cyprus which is globally recognized as the legal and rightful ruler of the whole island as it has the official sovereignty over the whole island.

By holding a WPT event or lending the brand name to an event in Kyrenia, Northern Cyprus the WPT is giving credibility to the continuing illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus and legitimising an illegal regime and republic that has stolen property and land belonging to others (incidentally the place at which the event is due to take place was illegally seized from the original owners and renamed from the original Zephyros).

Because the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is not recognized internationally you will also find that trade is severely restricted with that part of the island and that the North is relatively poor and under developed when compared to the more prosperous South. There is also a greater incidence of crime, disease and poor health in The North when compared to The South and grossly inferior medical facilities not to mention the numerous human rights abuses.

As such I find it both incredible and surprising that The WPT would even consider holding a WPT event there never mind actually having one take place later this year. To do so would be very much like the WPT holding charity poker tournaments in order to raise funding for known terrorist organizations such as Hamas and The Taliban.

I also wrote to Full Tilt Poker asking why they are running online qualifiers for this event and I eagerly await both organizations responses along with their explanations and justifications for their actions and why they feel the need to support an event in an illegal republic that continues to occupy a land that belongs to others.

By supporting such an event they are legitimizing and giving credibility to an illegal occupation of a country and supporting their economy.

I am not and have never been one to dictate to others what they should or should not do because I strongly believe individuals should have freedom of choice but just wanted to make as many in the poker community aware of my and others deep feelings that exist surrounding this forthcoming tournament.

This post is not intended for discussion and I am sure the Cypriot Government via it’s US embassy will be addressing this issue directly with the organizations concerned but as I said above just wanted to give some background to all this and express my dissatisfaction with The WPT’s moral bankruptcy in the hope that they can be persuaded to dissociate themselves from this event.

Harry Demetriou

A few days ago I sent an e-mail to Jeffrey Pollack (Commissioner for The WSOP)  in order to try and get clarification on this subject as it had rasied some concerns amongst overseas players and what was likely to ctually happen.

I also contacted The IRS and a couple of others but JP's response is the only decent one I recieved and is included below.


Jeffrey Pollack's Reply:

We are familiar with the recent IRS pronouncement regarding the treatment of poker winnings and I'm glad you've asked me to clarify the position of the WSOP -- especially since we've seen some reports that offer misleading speculation about what we will do regarding tournament winnings.
Here are the facts:
1. The new regulation raises the threshold for reporting poker tournament winnings to the IRS.
2. To date, casinos have been required to issue forms to the IRS and to individuals if the individuals won more than $600 in a poker tournament.
3. The new regulation, which becomes effective next March 4, raises that threshold to $5,000 (net of entry fees).
4. Some news organizations have reported that casinos will be required to withhold 25 percent of the winnings once that $5,000 threshold is reached, but such reports are inaccurate.
5. Casinos are not required to withhold money from such winnings as long as they provide a W2G or 1042S Form to the IRS reporting the winnings AND as long as the person winning the money is from a country that has a Tax Treaty with the United States and also has an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN).
6. If an individual is not from a Tax Treaty country and doesn't have an ITIN, casinos are required to withhold 30 percent of the winnings and to turn those funds over to the IRS. The individual can then file a request for a refund with the IRS.
7. The WSOP will not be withholding any money for taxes from players who live in the U.S. or a Tax Treaty country and provide either a Social Security number or ITIN.
8. If a non-U.S. player wants to apply for an ITIN, the WSOP will have appropriate forms available at the Rio and will file completed ones with the IRS.
9. If a player doesn't have or hasn't applied for an ITIN, the WSOP will be required to withhold taxes.
I hope this information is helpful to you and all the other good people on this forum.
I look forward to seeing you at the 2008 WSOP and 2008 WSOP Europe!

OK p253 to p260 of Ace on The River.

Some relavant information (inconveniently omitted).

Never played with small blind before.

This was the small blinds third hand that he was playing and his first raise after 45 mins of the first level.

As such he was labelled a conservative player and BG puts him on AK, AA or KK

He checks tbehind o induce a bet on the turn as the Ace may have scared the small blind into checking if he held KK and feels that he would have bet if holding AK otherwise he is holding AA. So now after the check on the flop and small bet on the turn its either KK or AA for the small blind.

On the river the all in bet tells him as a conservative player the small blind must have AA so he folds.

Makes the fold a lot easier after reading his thoughts on his opponent but I'm not saying I would have done this or been able to lay the hand down.

The 250 bet on the turn changed nothing about alteing the way BG thought of what his opponent was holding.

I've read Ace on The River but do not recall this hand so will go off and find it to see if I can get a little more information about the hand.

To be honet I am suprised that this is Barry Greenstein and I will ask him about this hand and his thinking when I next see him and report back.

The problem is not knowing anything about the opponent in the small blind but you do have to give the guy credit for a big hand as there is little else he is likely to repop you with before the flop especially fromt he small blind position.

However in BG's defence if you think you are behind you should fold and its as simple as that because pot odds and stack sizes in situations like this take on less significance.

................a pet tiger

2-1 someone nicks your tiger.....

1/2 my tiger licks or eats that someone...............................

The problem with Mr X here is that he has never made any kind of bet to find out if his opponent could be holding Aces.

His checks indicate slow playing in order to get all the chips into the middle OR that he feared his opponent had AA and if that was the case then he should have folded on the turn when facing that paltry 250 bet.

However with the stack sizes it looks nigh on impossible not to try and get all the chips into the middle and go broke if his oppponent held a better hand.

Once I have decided to play my hand like a winner and checked behind my opponent on the flop I am going to try and get all the money into the middle despite being fearfull of my opponent having a better hand. Probably I make a small raise on the turn.

I would definitely call on the river as at no stage can I possibly put my opponent on AA with the way the betting has gone. Had I bet on the flop or raised on the turn then I would at least have had a chance to put my opponent on a better hand. Because of this I leave my opponents range of hands to be too diverse to fold at any stage and as such think Mr X has played the hand poorly. (However I'll forgive him if he folds against a super tight opponent or if he has clear evidence to suggest he plays like one from earlier hands in this first level but doubt enough time has passed to be able to formulate this opinion. eg the guy has open folded KK at least twice to a pre flop raise).

Don't know but it seems like Mr X is either Doyle Brunson or Phil Hellmuth...they both play a pretty scared/reserved type game imho but I have a slight preference for PH in this hand in the way that it is played.

intrested in the dact you dont reckon the unkowns dont play back at the pros with marginal hands harry

i think that reraising with KJ KT JT are possibles as some players dont respect the pros raises

apart from that i agree with your post

Agree with you 100% Ironside but it goes to show how difficult any decision can be when you have little or no information about an opponent and how much easier it is when you do have something to go on. As its a WSOP event and I know little about my opponent I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and treating him as an OK player who knows something about the game and position and based on that and him being relatively tight early in a major tournament discounting him holding the weak type hands for rerasing me pre flop. Not an impossibility but extremely unlikely.

Here we go again ...but I love these hand analysis questions as we can all learn a lot from them regardless of who we are.

THis si long so don't read if you want your mind and thinking contaminated.

Firstly it is going to be tough to play this hand with very little information about the small blind but you are going to have to make assumptions based on their age and apparance and whether they have yet played any hands. In the absece of information then I am going to assume they are a regular OK type player. I am also going to have to guess if they are a scalp/name hunter or somone who knows or recognizes who I am and as such whether or not they will rush into playing pots with me or avoid me by giving me too much respect.

Pre Flop Play:

As the first player into the pot it is expected that I raise because in a tournament most players play tighter and you have a greater chance of picking up the blinds. This tightness is further exaggerated early in tournaments (FIRST LEVEL HERE) as players generally say to themselves that they are going to play only good solid cards and start off by being tight.

However this is POT limit holdem which differs from NO Limit holdem where genrally there is a sprint to get all your chips into the pot with premium hands. Because of this players when facing a pot sized bet are always getting 2/1 which makes it difficult to fold playable hands pre turn which means it can be difficult to force people off draws. Hence when you play a hand you often have to build the pot yourself by relatively sow playing some hands lik pairs in early position.

Holding pairs such as Tens or better in early position can therefore be rewarded by limping if there is a subsequent raise as it gives you an opportunity to make players who raise you make a decision for all their chips pre flop even though they may have some left over once theflop has arrived. Its a bit like making someone pay dearly if they have an inferior hand to you pre flop as usually the best hand holds up in a flop game like holdem (NB It can backfire if you get loads of limpers behind you but and no rerasie but thats life and you take your chances).

eg you limp in early position with your QQ for 50 and there is 125 in the pot. Assuming nobody else limps which can be an absolute bonus when it gets to the small blind he may raise to 225 (50 + 175) which means there is now 350 in the pot so I can re raise to 525 (175 +350) making a total of 700 in the pot. Bascially in this kind of scenario the sb loses more when he is behind than if you raised and makes the pre flop play more important when the flop comes as essentially further play committs all your chips as you each only have around 2000 with which to play.

Hence there is definitely a case for slow playing big pairs or QQ in this case from early positon in the first level of a pot limit tournament in order to build a bigger pot if someone subsequently re raises.

A final comment on the pre flop play assuming it goes down as described is to ask yourself what kind of hand the small blind has and what he thinks you have? He knows you are in early position and that you are likely to have a hand of quite a wide range of values (any pair from 88 to AA, any AT or better, or two cards suited if over a Ten if you are an aggressive good/great/well known player. However most likely as its a tournament he also knows that you as a goo/reat but not quite so aggressive player most likely have a premium hand which reduces the range somewhat because you are in ealry position and know how disadvantageous it is to play marginal or mediocre hands from that spot. This gives him more reason to re raise you with a premium hand because he may get you to re re raise with a worse hand than his. Because he is in the small blind (out of position) I believe that there are very few hands that the small blind can raise with and that these hands are AK, AA, KK, QQ (unlikely as I have the other two) and possibly JJ. With TT or 99 I would expect a call unless against a really aggressive playe like a Gus Hansen, David Benyamine or Patrick Antonius.

Flop Check:

I put my Small Blind Opponent on a hand that hit the flop unless he held JJ. It is now impossible for him/her to hold QQ as I have two of them and the board has One of them. I can't believe he re raised with something like KJ or 66 so the gutshot straight or bottom set is unrealistic. Likewise unless he is a very poor player I do not believe he has AJ or AQ (unlikely as I have the Queens) which also would not be reraising hands against an early position pre flop raiser. This leaves us with him holding AK (twelve combinations) AA (3 combinations) or KK (six combinations). With KK I think that the SB has to make some kind of mandatory bet to find ou if I have an Ace unless he want to play it like a winner and check rasie me should I bet but this brings me to another concept that I believe is relevant here because it is 2004.

Now I hear you all ask what relevance this has? Well I would say it is this.......

The poker boom has just started and is around 1-2 years old. Most people have been brought up on a diet of limit holdem and in limit holdem they have limit mentality in tht when they flop a monster (small blind holding AK or AA) they tend to check becasue they are waiting for the turn to get the chips in as in limit that is where the bigger (twice original size) bets come in. This is a mistake in big bet poker as what you want to do is win a big pot and to do that you need to bet ut when flopping something big and hope your opponent also has hit something big as in that way you win a big pot and all of an opponents chips. (I am not saying its wrong to slow play a set of aces by the small blind in this spot just trying to explain how limit thinking affects a lot of players thinking and action in pot limit and no limit).

So what do I make of my hand after the check on the flop by the small blind? I like having a set and am probably going to go broke if my opponent has top set because I can't throw my set of queens away but I am going to proceed with caution anyway and hope my opponent has an AK which is four times more likely than AA. In other words I will bet and make a decsion if the small blind calls or check raises so at least give myself some chance of getting away from my hand although in reality I think its impossible for me to do so.

I would bet around half the pot (500) or check but I am committed to going broke on this hand if necessary as I simply have to play my hnd as a winner. I am not good nough to fold although by betting 500 if my opponent then goes all in I have at least the miniscule chance of folding my set but if thinking objectively and adding the pieces of the puzzle you have to conclude that the only hand you can beat if check rasied is AK as this is one of only two hands your opponent is likely to be holding (other is AA) but its a nigh on impossible lay down.

Absolutely and unequivocally a cat but a specific cat........

Ever since I was a child (a long long time ago and in a distant galaxy) I have wanted to have a pet tiger and to take it for a walk down my local high street on a leash.

Just imagine everyone would automatically cross the road and I would have none of this having to dodge in and out of all the people congestion.

In these violent tmes I would also have absolutely no fear of getting mugged or attacked too and would probably welcome anyone even attempting to rob me;-)

PS A slight correction to the titleHome page where I am (mis)quoted.

I know you are roughly a 60/40 underdog to a set on the flop and do not recall saying you are a favourite against a set but a marginal favourite against two aces including the Ace of Clubs and a significant favourite against two red aces.

PPS Against top two pair as in this case you are roughly 50/50 on the flop so all in pushing or calling is pretty easy to do and you get the right odds to do the same even against a set the way the bettng goes but it is always better to be the one shoving as you get some fold equity...hence the power of pushing chips in first rather than calling.

I have to follow up on this now that we know Stuart was holding JT (a hand which I readily dismissed incidentally) with a couple fo further comments.

The flop came JT 7 wit 2 clubs.

There are two schools of thought and styles of play here (both equally valid I hasten to add).

First Thought/Style

On the flop Thater checked and Stuart bet followed by the check raise form Thater.

Personally I would read Thater's check raise out of position as either a big draw or at least top pair (but maybe even an overpair as I already hold a J and T which makes it less likely Thater has one of those cards) and as such would interpet the check raise as showing committment to the hand and push all in expecting to be called. As Stuart this woiuld have been my preferred play and if Thater had a hand like 89 or 77 then good luck to her. I would also be thinking that the board represented many possible draws and as such could prove dangerous to me if a straight or flushing card came on the turn.  As such I am happy to get all the money in on the flop with top two pair and think there is litte chance of my opponent folding in this spot.

Second Thought and style of play.

This is not a multi way pot (its heads up) between you and and one opponent out of position.

As Stuart flopping top two pair is a monster against one opponent and as such I want to get some value out of my hand and because of this I am prepared to take a chance and risk a straight card or flush card that may or may not damage me and help my opponent. I may even still commit all my chips on the turn if a straight or flush card comes up on the turn because its heads up.

To be honest I think this is the more professional of the two plays and would favour this play earlier in the tournament (as is the case here) except for the potentially dangerous looking board. Late on in a tournament I would defintiely not slow play this hand as I beieive you have too much to lose slow playing than by playing it straight but thats another discussion and dependant on the tage of the competition.

My comments above are not intended to be definitive ones as everything is relative to what you think about your opponent and how you think they are playing against you. eg If Stuart thought that Thater had an overpair (such as AA) but would fold to an all in re-raise on the flop then of course the right thing to do is smooth call the check raise on the flop.

Bottom line is that regardless of the play chosen it really is dependant on how you are reading your opponent and how you are assessing their play at the time so the best person to judge a play is the person actually at the table as they are in the best position to judge what may or may not be the best play. In essence what I am saying is that you have to make a judgement call here. As Howard Lederer says this is a game of incomplete information and you just have to make your best guess play. So back your judgement and make the play according to that judgement. Just because you may get it wrong from time to time doesn't mea you shouldn't make that play because the bottom line is that you will never ever be absolutely certain about what the right play is so you just have to go with your best guess.

After the event it is always easy to judge what would and would not have been the best play because you now know all the cards and what would or would not have been the best likely course of action.

So in answer to how Stuat played his hand (questionposed at the end of the reveal) - it depends on what his thiking of his opponent was at the time and whether he was prepared to take a chance in the hope he could extract more from a good hand and on what he felt Thater was holding. Assuming he put Thater on the flush or straight draw then it can often be correct to wait until the turn to commit chips making it difficlt for Thater to call with one card to come if not already holding the made hand.

Personally as stated above the board is a little too scary for my liking and on the flop if I were Stuart and beaten already it would be too bad. After the check raise with 7k+ in the pot I am happy to pick up the pot there and then (its too large to allow an opponent to hit on the turn) and as such would not slow play and put the rest of my chips in. As it happens on the turn I have a full and as such now I am prepared to wait nd hope my opponent iproves and/or bluffs into me on the river.

(NB This doesn't make me right and Stuart wrong just my preferred play with the information I have at my disposal which is a lot less tha Stuart would have had to go on having played for a few hjours with that opponent).

BTW I have just remembered I have failed to comment on wether or not I would have bet in Stuart's position after the check to me on the flop.

Because of the dangerous type board I would have bet something as did Stuart thinking its unlikely my opponent has anything along the lines of a J or T (as I am holding one of each) and preflopThater called me with most likely two big cards or a pair (after all what else would someone call my late position raise in the small blind and not re raise me) . As such Thater may have been slow playing an overpair and this could be just the spot in which I could win a big pot especially if Thater had the overpair and especially Aces or Kings. After the check raise though I now feel confident that Thater definitely has a decent hand (or at least a big draw as outlined above) and would proceed according to the above comments.