I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

Those people who show compassion for criminals, show no compassion for victims families, but those who want to torch criminals in public show all the compassion for victims families?

Seems like you are finding something repulsive that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Well my post was primarily aimed at you and your absurd whataboutery about Hillsborough because the key thing for you was to prove your superiority over BigAdz who was rightfully enraged about a teenage girl being slain in a park.

I don’t have an especially strong view on the death penalty, but I must say when I see posters on here who would rather win an argument with BigAdz than consider things from the victims viewpoint (including their families) I find it pretty repulsive.   All the focus on rehabilitation and creating contributors for society out of people who kill for entertainment or to show off?   I just can’t understand that mindset.  Cost shouldn’t be a consideration in some cases.

I think we have to take it on trust that Thompson has been rehabilitated:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/uk/james-bulger-killers-jon-venables-robert-thompson-murder-now/amp/

Even if he has, I think this is cold comfort for the Bulgers, for whom life has become a nightmare that will, I suspect, only end when they pass away. As I said in my previous post (it was, of course, conveniently ignored by Doobs), there are plenty of costs other than financial.

i'd also argue that the thoughts and feelings of victims should play a very small role in sentencing. ideally none, actually

nothing will expiadite the upset they have felt.

bulger is a very special case for a number of reasons, mainly the age of the killers. ten is a very young age, in a lot of countries they would not have even been charged.

i dont see it as a bad outcome that one of the killers has made it out the other side to be able to be in a relationship / job etc.

I sure am happy to see killers “make it out the other side”.  Gives me a warm glow.

I think it's a legit position to support the death penalty out of pure vengeance. It's about the only rational reason for supporting it.

Definitely not against this - the death penalty isn't cheaper and doesn't reduce crime overall; vengeance is a motive I'd respect.

This is my motive when I lean towards it.  I read a story and I want the perpetrator immediately incinerated in front of a joyous crowd.  It’s not just vengeance that is the justification.  It’s also the morale boost society receives from the vengeance.  Can’t put a price on that.

I am sat here watching a news item where some idiot has just gone up to a girl in a park listening to music, that he has never met, let alone offended him etc etc. She dies.

Tell me, not that you will change my mind, why should that waste of skin live himself?

In order to fully understand something you need to actively try and see all perspectives, especially those that contradict/oppose/conflict with your own. You also need to see all aspects, so basing your view on the tragic event of the girl’s death won’t lead to a well informed, well rounded opinion.

The discussion doesn’t need to be a confrontation. Imagine we’re on the same side, all we’re trying to do is better our own and each other’s understanding. (Announcing that you won’t change your mind before we start, is a perfect example of my point about what the problem is though.)

I guess an OK start point would be to ask...is there any evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent?

I’m generally against death penalty but when I see incidents like what Adz just mentioned I waiver.  I’m not sure in this instance I care if it is a deterrent.  It’s just good for society morale in this isolated case.   And I don’t need to see if from this murderer’s perspective who just ended a girl’s life for no reason.

There is no majority for TM’s deal
There is no majority for No Deal
There is no majority for a 2nd ref

So, likely to face an extension of A50. What on earth is that going to solve?

There simply is only one way out of this & that is a second vote, where it’s taken out of the politicians hands. Because simply we are never going to get a majority for anything, so therefore the 60m must vote on it, not the 650 who can’t mske a decision. Simply Deal v Remain.

Otherwise how realistically do we solve this? No deal isn’t realistic when neither MP’s or folk would vote for that cliff edge.

We voted for leave, it should be deal or no deal everything else should be off the ballot. If we cant get a deal we should leave.

You are using the we voted leave, so that means leave & im going to use the argument of lies being told by leave and now we now we know what Brexit looks like argument.

I think both are valid to be fair.

You seem to think that everyone that voted to leave fell for lies.

I voted leave in spite of this.

Don't think you know why I voted.

Yep, I voted against the federal state of Europe or was that a lie also?

It’s hard to work out how dumb you are (and Adz obv). What is the Federal State of Europe? You can’t invent things just to help you get angry.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hES7WlDLs8

How can i say this as eloquentlyly as possible. F*ck you. Do you really not believe that the end game for the EU is the federal state? and you say Adz and me are dumb.

I have read and absorbed so much during this time. Great opinions from all sides.

We are all getting on a bit and sometimes it's hard to accept you may be wrong, change your view etc.

All of us have had arguments and we all chat nicely on other non political threads, or at least still have a joke and remain civil.....bar one person who has turned out to be a real disappointment because we haven't all fallen into line with his point of view.

He left and came back only to insult us some more..

I know I deserve the grief I get, but some others are getting some flack they don't deserve because one person is convinced all he says is correct.

Takes all sorts....

Is this really fair? Nearly everyone who doesn’t hold right wing views has been driven from the thread. I tried for years to improve and enhance everyone’s understanding, including of course my own and to refine the quality of debate. The idea that it is me that is too rigid in my thinking isn’t a reasonable representation. Let’s just take the most recent contentious point....you said it was questionable whether the right or left of the political divide was more racist. It’s literally one of the things that defines the differing sides of the political spectrum.

I’m not ‘right wing’ and I’m still here.
I think you’re wrong in suggesting that racism defines the divide between the Conservatives and Labour. The primary difference is in economic policy, and always has been (apart from the Blair years obviously).

Even more generally the core, fundamental difference of principles between Conservatives and Labour is the size and role of government - but that is most often expressed in economic policy.

They might be right of centre and left of centre parties but conflating their opinions with far right and far left ideas is pretty disingenuous.

Phrasing like, "I tried for years to improve and enhance everyone’s understanding, ... and to refine the quality of debate", probably doesn't come across too well either.

The Conservative Party is and always has been more racist than the Labour Party is just a simple truism. Saying other true things doesn’t make that thing less true. It was one post that I made in response to the Mantis post, as Doobs pointed out he was probably just trolling and so it was foolish of me to rise to the bait.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/07/top-conservatives-condemn-zac-goldsmiths-disgusting-mayoral-campaign

As for linking political parties to extreme wings. We’re OK calling JC a Communist?

I’d say I would agree that historically a given Tory member is more likely to have racist views that a typical Labour member (I’m ignoring the current Momentum horror show here).

However it’s far too simplistic.   There are overlays of left v right wing economics and social views which creates a complex tapestry.  The BNP were a left wing party from an economic viewpoint but extreme racists to boot.  Are they a far right party who advocate mass nationalisation?  Or are they a racist left wing party?  I imagine you will go for the former but you can argue it either way.

[Will get a hot reception if his first game is Watford.]

huge coup for Leics getting BR. 

Mr Integrity himself.  Will get a hot reception if his first game is Watford.

Looking forward to Sunday, Mr Dung?

Not sure we will able to rouse ourselves again after giving Silva a hard time last time out!   Then it’s Zaha next up after that.  A procession of grudge matches.

Wonder how much more dollar we could give nurses if we didn’t have to prosecute and incarcerate all these irrelevant terror lovers.

If we didn’t need surveillance and protection against terror prob be a much bigger public purse.

Indeed this, and whilst it may not affect the vast majority of us, what about those poor families that have been affected by the actions of these terrorists. I am sure they would gladly work with 2% less in their pay packet to know their family are safe rather than dead.

No surprise to see Adz agree with your simplistic point, Mantis.

Imagine how much if every business didn’t hide their true revenues, if super rich taxed more, coperation tax, Mp’s lower salary, lower benefits, etc, etc.

Completely simplistic to even to think this.

“Every” business hides their revenues?  I love the fact the person that wrote this accuses someone else of being simplistic.

That’s the point I’m making. It’s simplistic to think like this.

Doesn’t read like that but fair enough.

Wonder how much more dollar we could give nurses if we didn’t have to prosecute and incarcerate all these irrelevant terror lovers.

If we didn’t need surveillance and protection against terror prob be a much bigger public purse.

Indeed this, and whilst it may not affect the vast majority of us, what about those poor families that have been affected by the actions of these terrorists. I am sure they would gladly work with 2% less in their pay packet to know their family are safe rather than dead.

No surprise to see Adz agree with your simplistic point, Mantis.

Imagine how much if every business didn’t hide their true revenues, if super rich taxed more, coperation tax, Mp’s lower salary, lower benefits, etc, etc.

Completely simplistic to even to think this.

“Every” business hides their revenues?  I love the fact the person that wrote this accuses someone else of being simplistic.

huge coup for Leics getting BR. 

Mr Integrity himself.  Will get a hot reception if his first game is Watford.

Players prices move based on the number of shares brought or sold.
For each 100 shares brought in a player his price rises by £0.01.

So 10,000 shares bought to move the price £1.  Sounds dull to me and just relying on anticipating herd mentality to make money.  Plus you need big liquidity

WTF was going on with the substitution of the keeper ars*hole?

What determines player price?  Is it just a random black box algo?  I’d so why should I believe the algo won’t just deliver according to bookie position?

Is it possible for a human to not have a nationality?

Happened to Tom Hanks at that airport.

Funny that not wanting traitor terrorists milling around our society is far right politics now, lolz

Indeed.  When I see Doobs, Cuckoo and Mint squealing it just affirms I am comfortable with the Government decision as a rationale decent middle of the road citizen.