i actually bet this turn because i can obviously represent the st8 (semi bluffing)and if he calls i sure he has a st8 so i control bet size on turn and then i value check raise here on the river cause ide expect him to bet the river if he has called the turn.  just my thoughts but live this seams to get all the money in at this kinda level. anyone else take this line?   

against really straight forward opponents with any sort of loose image you can bet turn again and call a mr to fill up or fold to a shove. still probably play as I said before.

I think i'd rather fire turn and river to move him off a small club rather than do it giving him such good odds on the river.

[have the ability]

lol I love how people hate steroetypes and think i'm being rude or saying something out or order. Do you take no information from how someone dresses/acts/speaks?

The phrase 4 bet bluffing really isn't a casino phrase so please don't try and tell me live players sit there 4 bet bluffing day in day out.  You do realise to understand 4 bet bluffing properly you either have to love your maths formulas or have a modicum or maths ability and play hundreds of thousands of hands. Younger players are more likely to have done this therefore they have the ability to 4 bet light older players who think AK is a drawing hand and that 72cc hitting a flush is worse compared to the A5cc fd lol are not going to be light hardly ever let alone 4 bet bluffing.

EDIT lets just remember how little 3 betting goes on live lol. there is no such thing as a 4 bet range for most live players let alone some proportion of that range that is a bluff to balance lol.

Firstly I don't hate stereotypes. I also don't think you're out of order or rude. You are just expressing an opinion and that is fine.

Taking information: I take infromation from betting patterns and perceived ability primarily. The difficult thing is assessing this ability. I have never based it on how old someone is or how they dress. That would just be stupid.

I play primarily live and I understand the phrase 4 bet bluff. If I think someone's stupid enough to think that because I'm 34 I will never 4 bet bluff then I can assure you that they are in for a world of hurt everytime they 3 bet me.

Thankyou for reassuring me that not all internet players are as good as I thought they might be.

/Sigh. You are under 40 and therefore fit into the some % of the time category!

FWIW I really dont think people 4 bet bluff in the first level of tournies, esp not those of an older age. I am talking frequency wise not just the ideology of it. IE how often do tight players open AND get three bet live, not that often (note that doesn't mean I rule it out but I just weight it as very unlikely when I consider the situation). So for them to then have a hand they want to 4 reraise with then if they only do that some very small percentage of the time then I really don't think we have to allow for a 4 bet bluff range consisting of much of their range early on in a tournament. Do we really think that this deep a tight player is 4 bet getting it in or 4 bet folding QQ? if not then his range for 4 betting really is as tight as KK and AA with some percentage of the time AK or a bluff (I would be interested what sort of hands from his initial tight opening range he is deciding to turn into a bluff by re-raising? What sort of hands would you yourself do it with?).


I think that this is a clear fold pre-flop and a perfectly acceptable 3 bet at the same time.

Thank you for seeing that my viewpoint is not meant to be an abrasive or stereotypical one. It is sometimes hard to get across on a msg board live reads and information but do not be foolish enough to think that because I am an online nerd I do not a) take this sort of information in or b) think that my initial reads will not change constantly. The steroetypical kind of read is just where I base myself.

I in no way believe I am wrong to assume that older players are tighter and younger players are more capable of being loose. It really is that way, there is such a divide in playing style between new and old school players, even between new and online style thinking types. Especially considering that most online players learn 6 max not 9 max play.

I have never based it on how old someone is or how they dress. That would just be stupid.

I think being this definitive about this is stupid, people really do conform in many ways to the way they dress and present themselves at the tables. However as I said you cannot stick to that read when you gain more information through playing hands with a person. It would be foolish to stick to your initial read when it is based on so little, you just have to start somewhere, the first hand you play with someone you aren't readless like you are online you have someone sitting in front of you, his clothes/watch/mannerisms/adeptness with chips give off a huge amount of information on which to make your initial reads.


Can I ask an honest question, how many hands of live have you played lifetime and how often can you say you have 4 bet bluffed (and how many of those in the first level of a donkament?).

Thankyou for reassuring me that not all internet players are as good as I thought they might be.

lol. FWIW many internet players who play regularly online are very good, the game has evolved so quickly online in the last few years. Many of the online players who come to live play do not adapt correctly and just spew money, others who approach the game as intellectually and indepthly as they did to learn to win online can happily crush the games. Transitioning from online to live play is a doddle comparing that to learning live and moving to online.

I think that most online players are overly cocky and misjudge the real edges that they have, at the same time I think that players who learnt the game live are in the most part stubborn and un-willing to accept that the online game has evolved to a point where the skill level is really that much higher than that of a good live player.

I did not mean to start a live vs online debate through my vague statements that you highlighted,  by 'have the ability' I do not mean that in a derogatory way but I do not believe a live player could explain the reasoning behind the 4 bet bluff in the same exact way that an online player could with regards to the maths of it.



I think we should remember that the reason people 4 bet bluff online is because people 3 bet such a wide range of hands, this was itself because when the online game was softer and there was more limping and passiveness people learnt to open more pots.

So to 4 bet bluff we need the person to be 3 betting light.
For the person to be 3 betting light we need the original opener to be have a wide opening range.

We have neither of those things in the situation imo which is another reason why I really dont consider this to be a situation where a 4 bet bluff is happening.

[have the ability]

lol I love how people hate steroetypes and think i'm being rude or saying something out or order. Do you take no information from how someone dresses/acts/speaks?

The phrase 4 bet bluffing really isn't a casino phrase so please don't try and tell me live players sit there 4 bet bluffing day in day out.  You do realise to understand 4 bet bluffing properly you either have to love your maths formulas or have a modicum or maths ability and play hundreds of thousands of hands. Younger players are more likely to have done this therefore they have the ability to 4 bet light older players who think AK is a drawing hand and that 72cc hitting a flush is worse compared to the A5cc fd lol are not going to be light hardly ever let alone 4 bet bluffing.

EDIT lets just remember how little 3 betting goes on live lol. there is no such thing as a 4 bet range for most live players let alone some proportion of that range that is a bluff to balance lol.

lol i love playing internet nerds live, please play more

Excellent discussion and valid reasoning, you must be right. You're obviously an expert.

So what percentage of 3 bets during live play are light do we think :lol: ??

[very very]

Approaching the end of Level 1 25/50, everyone has roughly the 10k they started with.

Tim Blake makes it 150 from MP
I find     on the button and make it 425
He now makes it 1100

I assume the next step is pretty straight forward but would like to see if any opinions here differ................

Hi Stuart, I read the OP and had a whole load of thoughts then read onwards and some of my questions were answered but I don't want to just pot my results orientated summary thoughts.

Fwiw I don't know who TB is, have never heard of him and on my first read through I had no read, considering that you didn't snap fold preflop I assumed initially that by you knowing his name he would be younger and therefore capable of 4 bet bluffing (esp if he is more of an online cash player who just understands how horrible it is being 4 bet that early). Initially against a younger player however spewy it may be I don't think calling is too bad though I wouldn't bet the flop.

Once I read through the posts I saw the picture of who it was and I at least recognised him though I have no information on how he plays. Yet i'll be honest he's not 18-25 so I think it's very very safe to assume he is not light here so we should just fold to the 4 bet, I don't though think that the 3 bet itself is bad. Three betting in position is so powerful and there are alot of worse hands that he can call with or at least mid pairs etc which though are ahead we can move him off of pretty easily depending on board texture.

I think you then go on to say that you bet call the flop I think? And I think you've got to bet fold the flop if you do bet.  No offence to Timl88 in any way, but people who have played as often as he has live are not going to be making moves for 30-50% of their stack in the first level they have alot more patience than people like me

Is this a joke?

Do you mean that every time someone who looks over 25 4 bets we have to fold because they can only have 1 of 2 hands? Also if they're under 25 we should flat because they could be light?

I don't think I've ever heard anything so ridiculous.

lol I love how people hate steroetypes and think i'm being rude or saying something out or order. Do you take no information from how someone dresses/acts/speaks?

The phrase 4 bet bluffing really isn't a casino phrase so please don't try and tell me live players sit there 4 bet bluffing day in day out.  You do realise to understand 4 bet bluffing properly you either have to love your maths formulas or have a modicum or maths ability and play hundreds of thousands of hands. Younger players are more likely to have done this therefore they have the ability to 4 bet light older players who think AK is a drawing hand and that 72cc hitting a flush is worse compared to the A5cc fd lol are not going to be light hardly ever let alone 4 bet bluffing.

EDIT lets just remember how little 3 betting goes on live lol. there is no such thing as a 4 bet range for most live players let alone some proportion of that range that is a bluff to balance lol.

Playing £550 final table with 5 left.

Blinds at 1500 / 3000 / 300

Cut off raises to 8200, SB flats.  This is the first hand that SB has flatted OOP on the final table out of a stack of around 280k.  Cut off is the curent short stack with around 81k after the raise.

Flop brings K,10,6 rainbow and SB leads for 11k fairly quickly.  Cut off raises to 27.8k.

What kind of hands do you put the cut off on?  Could he ever fold if you reshove?

I think it completely depends what the cut off thinks of the SB. If the SB thinks the CO opens a reasonable amount but then plays fit or fold post pretty much then bet-folding here is fine. Once the CO raises I think he is getting shoved on with KJ+ and QJ hands. Once the CO raises he really cant fold. FWIW even though the CO is the shortest stack he isn't that near to push fold mode and isn't in a position where he cant raise fold pre, so I don't think his pre-flop range has to be that tight.

I think he CO could easily have AA/AK some percentage of the time, considering he is calling out of the SB then the better he is the tighter his range is as he's calling 6700 not 5200 as it would be from BB. I don't think hands like suited Kings like K5 etc are in his range so pf his range is prob something like (22-88/AK-AT/KQ/KJ/QJ/JTs etc) Once CO raises the flop I think that he has 1 pair or is bluffing looking to fold thinking that he can never re-shove with a non v strong hand.

Considering that the board is rainbow I don't really see that many hands without any special dynamics being discussed that the CO really wants to raise the flop with. Unless he has a monster he wont like being jammed on, and if the SB is competent and could be lead folding with air then just calling gives him the opportunity to see your range as weaker and maybe continue to barrel depending on how the texture of the board runs out.

As played raise folding Kx seems horrible with this stack size. If CO calls the flop and turn is an offsuit deuce and he leads strong again I think you can make a much better judged fold because by going one street further I think we eliminate some percentage of the hands that he just lead the flop to try to take it down with. I'd be more tempted to call down on an Ace or a scare card rather than a blank I think.

[very very]

Approaching the end of Level 1 25/50, everyone has roughly the 10k they started with.

Tim Blake makes it 150 from MP
I find    on the button and make it 425
He now makes it 1100

I assume the next step is pretty straight forward but would like to see if any opinions here differ................

Hi Stuart, I read the OP and had a whole load of thoughts then read onwards and some of my questions were answered but I don't want to just pot my results orientated summary thoughts.

Fwiw I don't know who TB is, have never heard of him and on my first read through I had no read, considering that you didn't snap fold preflop I assumed initially that by you knowing his name he would be younger and therefore capable of 4 bet bluffing (esp if he is more of an online cash player who just understands how horrible it is being 4 bet that early). Initially against a younger player however spewy it may be I don't think calling is too bad though I wouldn't bet the flop.

Once I read through the posts I saw the picture of who it was and I at least recognised him though I have no information on how he plays. Yet i'll be honest he's not 18-25 so I think it's very very safe to assume he is not light here so we should just fold to the 4 bet, I don't though think that the 3 bet itself is bad. Three betting in position is so powerful and there are alot of worse hands that he can call with or at least mid pairs etc which though are ahead we can move him off of pretty easily depending on board texture.

I think you then go on to say that you bet call the flop I think? And I think you've got to bet fold the flop if you do bet.  No offence to Timl88 in any way, but people who have played as often as he has live are not going to be making moves for 30-50% of their stack in the first level they have alot more patience than people like me

Hi guys, Im Simon one of the guys who is living with Dan. We originally had 4 people total and had a house all signed for in Canary Wharf but unfortunately the Landlord pulled out and then a few days later one of the guys pulled out hence this post. We are looking for a place in either zone 1 or 2, we are not too bothered about being in central london and would prefer a place maybe 15-20 mins from the centre (on the tube) because you can get a much nicer place for the money than nearer the centre.

As for the internet we will have 2 internet connections on a load balancing router so we are never without the internet and if it disconnects on one it will swap over. Im pretty sure the general site rules regarding playing on the same IP address are you are allowed to play in the same MTT but not the same SNG or Cash game. Currently 2 of us (me and dan) play on Ladbrokes (me 2/4 and dan 5/10+) and the other guy (Chris) plays on Lucky Ace (Pacific Network 2/4). None of us are big tournament players but we do play the odd GUKPT and me and Dan are playing in the EPO.

Regarding having a problem with the landlord I don't see a way around this. None of us can prove our income so we have no choice but to pay 6 months in advance, thats one of the downsides of being a poker pro.

Any other questions please shout.

Hi mate, didn't know you could have more than one person logged into a MTT


Why are you guys so desperate to live in central if you are just looking to play online? Do you play much live?

The whole paying up front notion is very annoying, would be interesting if you could get your bank to have a house acct which you can put the money in before hand but then it pays it via dd so you dont have to pay upfront and worry about getting skanked.

we wont get robbed its all through estate agents

Not worried about being money grimmed, more about getting anything fixed or w/e. They will have no impetus!

Hi guys, Im Simon one of the guys who is living with Dan. We originally had 4 people total and had a house all signed for in Canary Wharf but unfortunately the Landlord pulled out and then a few days later one of the guys pulled out hence this post. We are looking for a place in either zone 1 or 2, we are not too bothered about being in central london and would prefer a place maybe 15-20 mins from the centre (on the tube) because you can get a much nicer place for the money than nearer the centre.

As for the internet we will have 2 internet connections on a load balancing router so we are never without the internet and if it disconnects on one it will swap over. Im pretty sure the general site rules regarding playing on the same IP address are you are allowed to play in the same MTT but not the same SNG or Cash game. Currently 2 of us (me and dan) play on Ladbrokes (me 2/4 and dan 5/10+) and the other guy (Chris) plays on Lucky Ace (Pacific Network 2/4). None of us are big tournament players but we do play the odd GUKPT and me and Dan are playing in the EPO.

Regarding having a problem with the landlord I don't see a way around this. None of us can prove our income so we have no choice but to pay 6 months in advance, thats one of the downsides of being a poker pro.

Any other questions please shout.

Hi mate, didn't know you could have more than one person logged into a MTT


Why are you guys so desperate to live in central if you are just looking to play online? Do you play much live?

The whole paying up front notion is very annoying, would be interesting if you could get your bank to have a house acct which you can put the money in before hand but then it pays it via dd so you dont have to pay upfront and worry about getting skanked.

Congrats Fran and Tony!  

Andrews a great name ftw!

I was all set to move into a balla poker pad in London in 2 weeks time with 3 other poker players. Unfortunatly one of the guys has backed out. we now have a room available to anyone interested in moving in. We are all in our early 20's and would be interested in someone of that age, looking to improve their game and have a good time etc. The main requirement is that we would require 6 months rent upfront plus deposit (as we dont have offical jobs) to pay to the landlord. We are looking for the rent and bills to be around £700-900 per month.

Balla's Apply Within.....

You said this was in the canary wharf area no? How long you renting for 6month tenancy or year but fund are required up front. If you pay up front be aware that you wont be able to expect much from the landlord as he has already been paid!

I am just finishing a tenancy with 2 friends in E. London and looking at where I want to live. 

What sites do all you guys play on? Any thought to internet setup? ie dongles for sunday afternoon tournies and so you can grind on the same networks?

I'd bet much bigger on the flop, 11/12. I think c/c is the best on the turn though I hate his bet size then re-evaluate the river. Sticking it in really doesn't seem to be a good option.

I would definitely raise the flop and try to isolate. I think that on the river you must bet, he looks like he has a showdownable hand not a get it in hand, he can't really expect you to be betting this river that much considering you didn't bet the turn. I doubt he'd check a flush here on the river so I think we are good to bet.

I don't get why you don't bet the flop instead of trying some fancy check raise move that risks 18k instead of 3k against an opponent like this.

My reasons for laying out the post from a different perspective were 2 fold really H/analysis and maybe open a debate on the level of skill of your average live player.. I mean I'm not short of a few quid by any means but i still feel £300 is a big buyin for an average player and I think that the vast majority of people who enter these events must be completely deluded or/and very losing players...

Didn't mean to come across rude talking about the posting style, I was very surprised coming from online of all tournaments from 300-1k. The 1k at DTD that I played was by far the worst standard tournament I have seen it was crazy. There are alot of losing players and not enough tournaments for luck to even themselves out such that if they win even a little bit once or twice they wont think they are doing that bad and will keep donating.

At the last monthly deepstack there, the table was shorthanded for the first half an hour and I was isolating the lady to my left every time she limped which was most hands and not once did she raise pre or rr me she would just fold mainly pre or call and c/f unless she connected. People where pointing out what I was doing and no one tried to stop me it was weird.