any1 think folding flop is nutline?

It probably is if you're planning on folding the turn, because in my experience these guys NEVER check the turn in spots like this,

however from a human perspective its too hard to fold probs, also what a fkin incred spot to hit a 3...
pretty sure you could deposit that £5k into ur account the following morning.

First of all I think we need to know whether or not he's perceptive enough to be able to put you on a fairly wide range in this spot and 3bet light. With the limper in there you're repping a stronger range than just an open raise so is he aware of this and is he still capable of 3betting light?

He is 100%. He is also capable of  betting thin for value (spesh as he knows im a bit of a station) but he wouldn't bet too thin vs me this deep I dont believe.

On the turn my thoughts were that Id probs have the best hand a ton, I would expect him to check back the flop with pure air a bunch as not many of my hands that I peel pre fold on this flop (certainly no pairs, AK, I have some and as well) so wasn't suprised when he checks the flop. now with a flush draw and bunch of showdown value I figured a check call the better option - the main hands I had in his value range were hands like KK/QQ which I wouldnt be suprised to see him check the flop with, as his hand is pretty invenreble and he can probs value town me with smaller pairs post turn. He is never folding KK/QQ/JJ ever on the turn but i have semi-decent equity. Also I rep no strength at all so likely to induce a second barrel as he can still credibly rep and OverPair on the river.

I do like the c.raise line thought for reasons mentioned, thoughts on sizing?

My reasoning for asking if anyone fancied a river check raise was to see if you thought he'd ever be bluffing with better?

even if he had QUADS it might still have been a bad fold.

Do u never lead turn here cos you're afraid he raises? I think this is a fold. Pretty sure he bets all his air on the flop

I didn't lead the turn because I have so much showdown value with the AQhigh here + obv a golden draw...do you think he folds AK if i bet the turn....?

Doubt it. You'd have to barrell again on river

Just seemed a bit of an unnessercary risk...

What Im wondering

Would would you asses as his ACTUAL value range?
does he really bet 77 for value?
does he turn AK/tiny pairs into a bluff?
do you not think he'd take this line with air?

Does he ever actually have a strong hand here - would anyone consider a check raise?

Sorry, I ask again, if villain only ever shows up here with 88 or KK and that's a fact from reads/history what is the purpose of the thread??

omg. The OP describes how he played the hand. Explains why he played it like that and is asking for opinions on his play, if you think villians range is wider, and would have taken a different line for w/e reason then please explain and contribute.

OP has already stated that hand is player dependant, he wouldn't fold to anyone else, but he folded specifically vs this guy because of the personal history/read which polarises villain's hand to the nuts. So what kind of contribution do you think is valid/helpful to the hand in question from people who don't know or have never played with villain?

I know what isnt any use.

Do u never lead turn here cos you're afraid he raises? I think this is a fold. Pretty sure he bets all his air on the flop

I didn't lead the turn because I have so much showdown value with the AQhigh here + obv a golden draw...do you think he folds AK if i bet the turn....?

Does young guy play on the interweb?

His 3-bet is pretty small pre

He does, although has since quit for a life as a professional live playa!

yeh, u never fold Costas

LOL spot on son

maybe i never fold but i know it's the right thing to do.

folded ur way to winning any big pots recently? calling is way more life+EV

Fold he has a pair

pair of?

Sorry, I ask again, if villain only ever shows up here with 88 or KK and that's a fact from reads/history what is the purpose of the thread??

omg. The OP describes how he played the hand. Explains why he played it like that and is asking for opinions on his play, if you think villians range is wider, and would have taken a different line for w/e reason then please explain and contribute.

OK, just so I've got it straight. The reason we make it to this level is because we can make passes like this. But in the same breath we must understand that our oppo, who has also made it to this level, is the worse kind of terrible. Yep understand that.

Dearie me.

here we go hope this helps


EDIT* how the fuuuuuuuk do i EMBED this youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQuw4CfMlOg

Sat to the right of an active (but not overly aggro) young guy in a £1/£2 game.
Have lots of history expected a reasonable amount of 3betting but not super light...Im loosing a small amount he is up a few hundred I think.
He is reasonably tight but definatley not a nit by any stretch, does have a tendancy to BIG light river bets as well but doesnt often do it vs me.

Hero £880
Villian £1k

straddled to £4 1 limper, to me in the Hijack i raise to £20 with  .
Villian 3bets to £52 - THIS IS THE THIRD 3bet of the game I've peeled 1 and folded to 2. none showndown.

Folds back round to me, I call £32

Flop  I check he quickly checks

Turn  . I check he bets £84. I call

River  . I check. He bets £188

Thoughts?

[worthwhile]

I call turn and call river. Seriously. We have a set. WTF?

pretty terribad way of thinking about this hand imo, ive stressed in the original post that the villian is very very tight and plays very face up. saying we hav a set u cant ever fold means that ur not thinking that this is in a 10-25 london cash game wher the guy has bet 900 english sterling pounds in a pot now for me / you this is 900 and not 900£ like it is to the villian. 

If the answer depends entirely on your special understanding of the dynamics between you and villain then I don't see the purpose of the thread. So you can say to people they are wrong because they don't understand the situation as well as you do? I would wake up the next day and still feel like a horrible nit for folding this. His tendencies are only part of the answer, they are tendancies, maybe he read something about being aggro with tp since last time he played you, maybe he saw Gus Hanson play K-Q this way on the telly, maybe he thinks he's value-towning a LAG, any of those things are as likely as he has a set of Kings. If you are saying he never never has less than a set what's the question again?? Never folding the turn myself. 

The OP was describing the dynamic and giving an insight to reads and history with the villian, because the question is NOT how me, you or anyone would have played the hand, but asking for us to critique the hand as played, and offer any worthwhile opinons on how our HERO played the hand....so that is the point of the thread.

My opinion.
I would fold on the turn vs the generic live super nit I play with in my games. I would DEFO NOT TELL ANYONE THO

[Generally I think with overbet river dynamic it starts with doing it for valuetown, when your opponent knows you can do it for value you balance it with bluffs and when your opponent knows you can do it with a bluff you can do it for thin value. Some time after that you do it for merge/metagame. If I think a player is reasonably good I skip to step 2 but I think it's a bit FPS to start doing it for very thin value vs a relative unknown. To answer your question with Xx5-9h on the river my first thought would be to bet and I would think about the board and how I want to bet my entire range, which in this case I think I would want to bet 0.9x-1.5x pot. Unfortunately this did not occur to me during the hand]

I really disagree that this spot as a stnd polarises your hand to  or AIR If you have a built a range here then surely 2/3/4th nut flushes + cool merge combos like  x or even  ....

I dont think that overshove bluffing/value betting is +EV at all in spots where you're polarized.

Generally I think with overbet river dynamic it starts with doing it for valuetown, when your opponent knows you can do it for value you balance it with bluffs and when your opponent knows you can do it with a bluff you can do it for thin value. Some time after that you do it for merge/metagame. If I think a player is reasonably good I skip to step 2 but I think it's a bit FPS to start doing it for very thin value vs a relative unknown. To answer your question with Xx5-9h on the river my first thought would be to bet and I would think about the board and how I want to bet my entire range, which in this case I think I would want to bet 0.9x-1.5x pot. Unfortunately this did not occur to me during the hand

Thats really cool. I wish i was better at poker lol

i wish i was james keys

+1,000,000

[Generally I think with overbet river dynamic it starts with doing it for valuetown, when your opponent knows you can do it for value you balance it with bluffs and when your opponent knows you can do it with a bluff you can do it for thin value. Some time after that you do it for merge/metagame. If I think a player is reasonably good I skip to step 2 but I think it's a bit FPS to start doing it for very thin value vs a relative unknown. To answer your question with Xx5-9h on the river my first thought would be to bet and I would think about the board and how I want to bet my entire range, which in this case I think I would want to bet 0.9x-1.5x pot. Unfortunately this did not occur to me during the hand]

I really disagree that this spot as a stnd polarises your hand to  or AIR If you have a built a range here then surely 2/3/4th nut flushes + cool merge combos like  x or even  ....

I dont think that overshove bluffing/value betting is +EV at all in spots where you're polarized.

Generally I think with overbet river dynamic it starts with doing it for valuetown, when your opponent knows you can do it for value you balance it with bluffs and when your opponent knows you can do it with a bluff you can do it for thin value. Some time after that you do it for merge/metagame. If I think a player is reasonably good I skip to step 2 but I think it's a bit FPS to start doing it for very thin value vs a relative unknown. To answer your question with Xx5-9h on the river my first thought would be to bet and I would think about the board and how I want to bet my entire range, which in this case I think I would want to bet 0.9x-1.5x pot. Unfortunately this did not occur to me during the hand

Thats really cool. I wish i was better at poker lol