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November 18, 2017, 09:24:28 PM

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 1 
 on: Today at 09:17:14 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by Doobs
So say I deposit 1 BTC (at $5k a coin) on a site. Win 10 coins at various values throughout a few months, then cashout 11 coins at $8k, do I pay CGT on the 1 coin (3k increase)? Or just sack it off as there is no way of keeping track of what each coin won has increased/decreased in value?

Surely sack it off. You wouldn't have to pay CGT if the dollar surged to parity to the pound and you cashed out from stars. Or if you went to Vegas with $100k and by the time you came back was worth £100k.

I think the line is when you are viewed to be trading it. Where that line is who knows.

I'm sure someone will tell me I'm talking out of my arse, but since crypto is a currency, not a stock, if you just hold it then sell it months later (rather than trade it daily for e.g.) then surely you aren't subject to CGT?

It is an asset though, and the tax form says "any asset", so it is liable for CGT on my understanding.  You can make £11k or so before tax each year in capital gains, so most people aren't going to have to pay CGT.   

Back in the day, when I traded shares a lot more aggressively, I used to do a lot of spread betting to avoid CGT, but even if I hadn't, I'd have been pretty much ok most years.  You may think you are going to make five figures each year or whatever, but the reality is usually different for most.  And even if you do have a really good year, you can usually avoid selling or split it over an April.  If you make way more than 5 figures, you shouldn't be grumbling about paying tax anyway.

I think you are right on teh poker account/gambling rules for this situation.  I expect if you held it in a gambling/poker account, you used for gambling/poker, can show you did lots of gambling/poker, then you wouldn't have to worry too much.

It was a serious question to Dave about tax.   I have been self employed/run companies for 15 years or so, there is a good chance I could get away with paying less tax, but I am pretty good with it.  We get a good deal tax wise when compared with a lot of people who are quite a bit poorer, so I try and do the right thing.  Been able to get away with it seems bad reasoning.               

 2 
 on: Today at 07:53:40 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by SuuPRlim
the biggest danger of not declaring for CGT on btc profits is if HMRC calculate it/the fines for you, you could get royally f**ked.

They could very easily just take the earliest point they can estimate you bought a coin, and assume you bought every coin at that price, then it would be back on you to appeal the decision and prove you actually paid more for them, and given the nature of BTC there's a very good chance you won't actually be able to to that sufficiently.

Because Cryto is on the border of a Currency and a stock (not considered a currency by HMRC, but traded between people as a currency) if you are going to sell BTC into cash, you should pay for as many things/settle as many debts etc in BTC as you won't be liable for CGT until they come to cash.

 3 
 on: Today at 07:49:31 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by typhoon13
It depends on your location, but in the UK, yes – any profits made when bitcoin moves from one party to another are subject to capital gains tax.

Spread betting on bitcoin is tax free, however, as you won’t have to pay any capital gains tax or stamp duty on your profits.

 4 
 on: Today at 07:37:51 PM 
Started by kinboshi - Last post by McGlashan
Ancajas is a great 1/5 shot tonight. I also like the prices on an early stoppage. Conlan has gone life and death at domestic level and his tactic of using his face to block punches isn’t going to fair too well at World level.

Conlan is on list. Paddy Barnes is in tough again, but Frank probably has his back. I'll happily watch Rob Cross over wee Carl whose failed to make weight.

 5 
 on: Today at 07:33:19 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by Rupert
Quote
I'm sure someone will tell me I'm talking out of my arse, but since crypto is a currency, not a stock, if you just hold it then sell it months later (rather than trade it daily for e.g.) then surely you aren't subject to CGT?

Nah you'd be liable for CGT. It's treated exactly the same as a stock (most stocks are bought and held for a couple of years).

You'd also be a complete idiot not to pay your taxes due. Just to be clear: this is tax evasion.

 6 
 on: Today at 07:00:22 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by typhoon13
Why not spread bet the price and you know you won't pay tax on profits

No need to bother with online wallets etc

Just make sure you have enough on account to cover any volatile gap trades

 7 
 on: Today at 06:16:54 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by SuuPRlim
Hypothetically speaking if I cashout x amount of bitcoin from a poker site, the bitcoin increases by y amount in value so that capital gains tax would need to be enforced, but I also use that bitcoin to play poker on various other sites where I win/lose z amount, is there any way for the IRS to prove that I have to pay CGT on the bitcoins I have held? So for example I withdraw $100k worth of BTC to my exchange, I redeposit $70k of that, lose $20k but the $30k I have in the exchange increases in value by $10k does that qualify? Is there any way for the IRS to prove this? Are they in contact with the exchanges?

I would say you only pay cgt on assets held in a wallet on an exchange. As soon as you deposit into the poker site it's no different to purchasing a loaf of bread. Even though you could lose half your roll while playng poker, if BTC doubles you have effectively parred your losses.

In saying that the US tax system is totally different to the UK so you would really need to clarify this with an accountant over there.

If there is a poker site that accepts American players into an international player pool please spill the beans. I miss playing the Americans and I was a raging fish back then so feel as though I missed out!

I had lunch with my accountant recently, and he said bitcoin and tax was super simple, like you say CGT fully applies. Also you don't pay capital gains tax until you turn them into cash, if you bought 100 bitcoins for $10k and now they are woth $800k - there is no CGT due until you turn them into money, even if they are worth $100k a coin, there's no CGT due until you sell one as its not technically considered as money in the govt eyes.

Also there is 0% chance that HMRC or any Govt revenue service will be able to see your crypto wallets even on exchanges, contray to popular belief without cause to do so they cant even look in your bank account. No way to prove what you paid for them I think you can probably just fill out a tax return with a believable capital gain # and they'd have to take your word for it, they'd probably just be jolly happy someone volunteered some tax on it, certainly isn;t worth them investigating, all you wanna do if you're taking a big number out of BTC is prevent a spot where they do investigate you and you risk them making some assumptions about your capital gains from BTC which might end up being aggressive and there's not a lot you can do about that with the nature of BTC.

Why wouldn't you just pay the tax? 


lol.

Classic Doobs

 8 
 on: Today at 06:07:25 PM 
Started by tikay - Last post by flushthemout
Try Norman Rimmington Tikay

 9 
 on: Today at 06:04:12 PM 
Started by tikay - Last post by flushthemout
Never been to such a one sided game, we absolutely bossed it.

 10 
 on: Today at 05:59:03 PM 
Started by bergeroo - Last post by cambridgealex
So say I deposit 1 BTC (at $5k a coin) on a site. Win 10 coins at various values throughout a few months, then cashout 11 coins at $8k, do I pay CGT on the 1 coin (3k increase)? Or just sack it off as there is no way of keeping track of what each coin won has increased/decreased in value?

Surely sack it off. You wouldn't have to pay CGT if the dollar surged to parity to the pound and you cashed out from stars. Or if you went to Vegas with $100k and by the time you came back was worth £100k.

I think the line is when you are viewed to be trading it. Where that line is who knows.

I'm sure someone will tell me I'm talking out of my arse, but since crypto is a currency, not a stock, if you just hold it then sell it months later (rather than trade it daily for e.g.) then surely you aren't subject to CGT?

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