K,K facing 4bet from UTG+1 at $25NL

[richard2]

Full Tilt Poker Game #20196111224: Table Apollo - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:11:54 ET - 2010/04/19
Seat 1: terus ($40.38)
Seat 2: frazer86 ($25.70)
Seat 3: Tinman621 ($22.38)
Seat 4: irunondunkin ($25.17)
Seat 5: Gunners14000 ($24.94)
Seat 6: NoImNotMrsBell ($25)
Seat 7: sojackso ($18.75)
Seat 8: Eduard1984 ($8.74)
Seat 9: david12200212 ($9.85)
terus posts the small blind of $0.10
frazer86 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to frazer86 [ ]
Tinman621 calls $0.25
irunondunkin raises to $0.75
Gunners14000 folds
NoImNotMrsBell folds
sojackso folds
Eduard1984 has 15 seconds left to act
Eduard1984 folds
david12200212 folds
terus folds
frazer86 raises to $3
Tinman621 folds
irunondunkin raises to $5.25
frazer86:..........


what do you do ?

[kinboshi]

I ban you.

[mondatoo]

I ban you.

Knew it would go to your head,disappointing.

[Rod]

Three pumps of the fist is enough here :-) Not even I am thinking of folding and I love folding far too much.

There are two ways of playing it, you can raise or you can call. I play the same level as this on Pokerstars and since the start of the year I have had KK facing a 4-Bet 44 times and am well in profit with it (by 9BB/hand, although only AA and KK show a profit for me when facing a 4-bet although looking at the hand ranges other players are showing up with you should play QQ and even JJ the same even though I might fold JJ and possibly QQ here - might have to rethink that)

Personally I just shove here (I am not to concerned about the small stack he can do as he wants they nearly always show up with worse), he probably has AA, QQ or AK maybe JJ. You crush his range. He might fold the queens or AK, but so be it. It is more likely he will call with worse. I have looked through my own Poker Tracker before making this post and have seen some very strange calls. AK and QQ seem to pay you off quite a lot but people call with much worse.

You could call to disguise your hand, let him make the c-bet on the flop so he feels more pot committed with his QQ, JJ or unpaired AK and get it all in that way. The result is usually the same.

I currently play too passively and fold more hands than I should, but would be shoving here.

[SuuPRlim]

i think it's really important when you're playing games/stakes on a regular basis to think about hands in from an overall game theory perspective. Basically you need to build ranges or certain spots and this is one of them, like ROD says, he has seen people showing up with wide enough range in these spots that it would be profitable to bet/call JJ+. If you fold this hand here, then you're range for this spot is AA only, so now a shrewd reg can 4 bet insanely wide vs you in this spot because you are going to fold JJ-KK, this is really exploitable.

How you proceed is again intirely dependant on you're straegy, if there are hands you want to flat here, then you should be flatting JJ-AA occasionally as well to balance it, if you wont ever really flat here and dont need a range to flat in these spots then you should be shoving/5bet calling - shoving seems better imo although it'll depend on stack sizes.

Yeah often people wake up with AA in these spots cos people dont tend to 4ball much without AA at LS FR im led to believe, if you're loosing money in these spots with JJ/QQ then you could consider folding these hands as well, and if for some reason in a vacuum you have reason to believe that the 4bettor ONLY has AA here then you could fold KK as well, but from a game theory angle it would be bad to fold.

[Whollyflush]

i think it's really important when you're playing games/stakes on a regular basis to think about hands in from an overall game theory perspective. Basically you need to build ranges or certain spots and this is one of them, like ROD says, he has seen people showing up with wide enough range in these spots that it would be profitable to bet/call JJ+. If you fold this hand here, then you're range for this spot is AA only, so now a shrewd reg can 4 bet insanely wide vs you in this spot because you are going to fold JJ-KK, this is really exploitable.
How you proceed is again intirely dependant on you're straegy, if there are hands you want to flat here, then you should be flatting JJ-AA occasionally as well to balance it, if you wont ever really flat here and dont need a range to flat in these spots then you should be shoving/5bet calling - shoving seems better imo although it'll depend on stack sizes.

Yeah often people wake up with AA in these spots cos people dont tend to 4ball much without AA at LS FR im led to believe, if you're loosing money in these spots with JJ/QQ then you could consider folding these hands as well, and if for some reason in a vacuum you have reason to believe that the 4bettor ONLY has AA here then you could fold KK as well, but from a game theory angle it would be bad to fold.

Not really, the sample size you would have to acquire to know this is a stone cold certainity would be huge, ive got over 50k hands history with the same regs yet i still have very limited information about there 4bet tendancies. Its probably one the few dynamics of the game which a HUD isn't particularly accurate as it will vary hugely player to player.

That said with no real reads seems like a standard ship.

[SuuPRlim]

i think it's really important when you're playing games/stakes on a regular basis to think about hands in from an overall game theory perspective. Basically you need to build ranges or certain spots and this is one of them, like ROD says, he has seen people showing up with wide enough range in these spots that it would be profitable to bet/call JJ+. If you fold this hand here, then you're range for this spot is AA only, so now a shrewd reg can 4 bet insanely wide vs you in this spot because you are going to fold JJ-KK, this is really exploitable.
How you proceed is again intirely dependant on you're straegy, if there are hands you want to flat here, then you should be flatting JJ-AA occasionally as well to balance it, if you wont ever really flat here and dont need a range to flat in these spots then you should be shoving/5bet calling - shoving seems better imo although it'll depend on stack sizes.

Yeah often people wake up with AA in these spots cos people dont tend to 4ball much without AA at LS FR im led to believe, if you're loosing money in these spots with JJ/QQ then you could consider folding these hands as well, and if for some reason in a vacuum you have reason to believe that the 4bettor ONLY has AA here then you could fold KK as well, but from a game theory angle it would be bad to fold.

Not really, the sample size you would have to acquire to know this is a stone cold certainity would be huge, ive got over 50k hands history with the same regs yet i still have very limited information about there 4bet tendancies. Its probably one the few dynamics of the game which a HUD isn't particularly accurate as it will vary hugely player to player.

That said with no real reads seems like a standard ship.

i defo agree with this, but as you say so hard to have that kind of sample on 1 individual, so persoanally I'd just take like an "average" of the stake.
Whollyflush - do you play much FR (this is gonna drift way off topic sorry OP) you a HU man ye?
Id be interested to know exactly how you set your HUD up for FR/6max/HU - im a massive fish with my HUD lol

[action man]

wow all these multi line responses just saying dont fold KK at $25nl

[SuuPRlim]

wow all these multi line responses just saying dont fold KK at $25nl

its midday and im awake trigg sure have anything better to do

[AlexMartin]

dont play full ring, its not real poker.

[Whollyflush]

i think it's really important when you're playing games/stakes on a regular basis to think about hands in from an overall game theory perspective. Basically you need to build ranges or certain spots and this is one of them, like ROD says, he has seen people showing up with wide enough range in these spots that it would be profitable to bet/call JJ+. If you fold this hand here, then you're range for this spot is AA only, so now a shrewd reg can 4 bet insanely wide vs you in this spot because you are going to fold JJ-KK, this is really exploitable.
How you proceed is again intirely dependant on you're straegy, if there are hands you want to flat here, then you should be flatting JJ-AA occasionally as well to balance it, if you wont ever really flat here and dont need a range to flat in these spots then you should be shoving/5bet calling - shoving seems better imo although it'll depend on stack sizes.

Yeah often people wake up with AA in these spots cos people dont tend to 4ball much without AA at LS FR im led to believe, if you're loosing money in these spots with JJ/QQ then you could consider folding these hands as well, and if for some reason in a vacuum you have reason to believe that the 4bettor ONLY has AA here then you could fold KK as well, but from a game theory angle it would be bad to fold.

Not really, the sample size you would have to acquire to know this is a stone cold certainity would be huge, ive got over 50k hands history with the same regs yet i still have very limited information about there 4bet tendancies. Its probably one the few dynamics of the game which a HUD isn't particularly accurate as it will vary hugely player to player.

That said with no real reads seems like a standard ship.

i defo agree with this, but as you say so hard to have that kind of sample on 1 individual, so persoanally I'd just take like an "average" of the stake.
Whollyflush - do you play much FR (this is gonna drift way off topic sorry OP) you a HU man ye?
Id be interested to know exactly how you set your HUD up for FR/6max/HU - im a massive fish with my HUD lol

Just a stnd HUD really, PFR/VPIP/3BET/Hands-2nd line my c/bet villan's fold to flop bet/my fold to 3bet.
I don't play FR just 6max and HU midstakes.

[SuuPRlim]

i think it's really important when you're playing games/stakes on a regular basis to think about hands in from an overall game theory perspective. Basically you need to build ranges or certain spots and this is one of them, like ROD says, he has seen people showing up with wide enough range in these spots that it would be profitable to bet/call JJ+. If you fold this hand here, then you're range for this spot is AA only, so now a shrewd reg can 4 bet insanely wide vs you in this spot because you are going to fold JJ-KK, this is really exploitable.
How you proceed is again intirely dependant on you're straegy, if there are hands you want to flat here, then you should be flatting JJ-AA occasionally as well to balance it, if you wont ever really flat here and dont need a range to flat in these spots then you should be shoving/5bet calling - shoving seems better imo although it'll depend on stack sizes.

Yeah often people wake up with AA in these spots cos people dont tend to 4ball much without AA at LS FR im led to believe, if you're loosing money in these spots with JJ/QQ then you could consider folding these hands as well, and if for some reason in a vacuum you have reason to believe that the 4bettor ONLY has AA here then you could fold KK as well, but from a game theory angle it would be bad to fold.

Not really, the sample size you would have to acquire to know this is a stone cold certainity would be huge, ive got over 50k hands history with the same regs yet i still have very limited information about there 4bet tendancies. Its probably one the few dynamics of the game which a HUD isn't particularly accurate as it will vary hugely player to player.

That said with no real reads seems like a standard ship.

i defo agree with this, but as you say so hard to have that kind of sample on 1 individual, so persoanally I'd just take like an "average" of the stake.
Whollyflush - do you play much FR (this is gonna drift way off topic sorry OP) you a HU man ye?
Id be interested to know exactly how you set your HUD up for FR/6max/HU - im a massive fish with my HUD lol

Just a stnd HUD really, PFR/VPIP/3BET/Hands-2nd line my c/bet villan's fold to flop bet/my fold to 3bet.
I don't play FR just 6max and HU midstakes.

TY

[pleno1]

dont play full ring, its not real poker.

this. flat and getting it in on the flop is good imo. people always do weird things like 4bet fold 1010-qq but never fold once the flop comes 9xx

[DMorgan]

this. flat and getting it in on the flop is good imo. people always do weird things like 4bet fold 1010-qq but never fold once the flop comes 9xx

25nl has sure got tougher