simple pre flop spot

[pleno1]

okerStars Hand #101385693353: Tournament #813020025, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (200/400) - 2013/07/14 16:51:27 CET [2013/07/14 10:51:27 ET]
Table '813020025 97' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: luckynikNN (17604 in chips)
Seat 2: ShaiStar (4048 in chips)
Seat 3: LOL_U_91 (20019 in chips)
Seat 4: DMS75 (55840 in chips)
Seat 5: DutchRaise72 (16718 in chips)
Seat 6: pads1161 (8707 in chips)
Seat 7: Mist3rJacks (14906 in chips)
Seat 8: Babino322 (6639 in chips)
Seat 9: veeea (6534 in chips)
luckynikNN: posts the ante 40
ShaiStar: posts the ante 40
LOL_U_91: posts the ante 40
DMS75: posts the ante 40
DutchRaise72: posts the ante 40
pads1161: posts the ante 40
Mist3rJacks: posts the ante 40
Babino322: posts the ante 40
veeea: posts the ante 40
Mist3rJacks: posts small blind 200
Babino322: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pads1161 [ As]
veeea: folds
luckynikNN: folds
ShaiStar: folds
LOL_U_91: raises 400 to 800
DMS75: folds
DutchRaise72: folds
pads1161:

ok just want somebody to tell me why jamming 22bigs is better than 3bet calling in this spot. we pretty readless.

a good comprenhesive answer would be really great.

[pleno1]

i need some help with the logic of theres enough money in there to not want to get it in as a big favourite by inducing with ak etc

[rfgqqabc]

Completely depends on our perception of opponent and our opponents perception of us. I imagine we should be doing a combination of both against someone we know who is a good thinking player, because by only doing one we can become exploitable. However, this also depends on our opponent actually doing some post session reviews and taking notes etc. The deeper we are the less variance we want, but at the same time the more likely our opponent could be to just let rip with some random bajunki stuff. Its finding the balance and finding when people let rip more, if they are capable of letting rip say on the bubble or with 50 left etc.  We give him the opportunity to make a mistake by 3bing, we allow him to incorrectly jam or fold (presuming we are balanced) whereas by jamming we allow him to play pretty dam well, I imagine/hope/know regs will play pretty well vs a 22bb shove.

Jam will be +ev for sure. 3bet/call +ev also, but we need to balance a 3b/f and a jam range and this can get tough whilst on many tables so I think this is why you might see good players jam. Simply it is a close decision between the two and as long as we remain conscious of our image and remain balanced then a combination of the two is in my opinion the best.


Ew, i wrote this up thinking he was opening a lot later than he was. I think folding is somewhat underrated here vs most villains with 22bigs. With 16 easy jam. Just a budget grinder here though. Maybe thats where im going wrong. #nitlife.

edit: I just think i can do a lot of damage with 22beibers in this tourney, no need to panic.

[Honeybadger]

i need some help with the logic of theres enough money in there to not want to get it in as a big favourite by inducing with ak etc

I am not going to do the maths (or comment) on this exact hand, but I can help explain the logic/principle involved. Then you can do the maths for yourself and see if the principle applies in this specific hand.

At some point in a stack size continuum you reach a point where the EV of forcing an opponent to fold his bluffs is greater than the EV of inducing him to jam with them. This point is a function of the equity your opponent has with his bluff jams vs your hand. Thus the perceived frequency of your opponent jamming a dominated hand is a key part of your decision on whether to 3bet jam or 3bet small to induce. Remember though that unless you have specifically an overpair to your opponent's undercards/underpair your opponent is always going to have around 30% with even his weakest bluffs. Given that there is a chunk of money in the pot with the blinds/antes/raise, at some point in the stack size continuum if you have KK you do better forcing your opponent to fold A5s by 3bet jamming rather than inducing him to bluff jam it by making a small 3bet.

I am not a tournament guy as you know, but there is another consideration too: Variance. It is a lower variance line to 3bet jam rather than 3bet to induce. So in spots that are perhaps slightly more +chipEV to 3bet small rather than 3bet jam it might be correct to 3bet jam anyway since it reduces variance and 'protects your tournament life'. If that sort of thing is important to you, of course.

[TL900]

3b/c

[Honeybadger]

3b/c

I think Patrick is asking about the logic of such spots, rather than wanting advice on the specific hand he posted. That's how I read his post anyway...

[jgcblack]

3b/c

I think Patrick is asking about the logic of such spots, rather than wanting advice on the specific hand he posted. That's how I read his post anyway...

you should know better Stu.

successful whoosh is successful.

What do we do if we 3b to call and someone peels?? (I know they 'shouldnt')

[titaniumbean]

better question than with AK surely is what is our cutoff for switching from rejam to b/c and why...

[TL900]

3b/c

I think Patrick is asking about the logic of such spots, rather than wanting advice on the specific hand he posted. That's how I read his post anyway...

Yeah I posted just v quickly in the sync break albeit pretty lazily, I would assume looking at the blind level that there is no ICM considerations ie nowhere near ITM or FT etc so IMO we should always be making the most +Cev play which i believe to be 3b/c. Obviously thats talking from someone who plays MTT's almost exclusively whereas the rec player should probably take some lower variance lines to preserve tournament life etc.

[TL900]

3b/c

I think Patrick is asking about the logic of such spots, rather than wanting advice on the specific hand he posted. That's how I read his post anyway...

you should know better Stu.

successful whoosh is successful.

we don't all just randomly click buttons John