ABE, Anyone but England?

[jammer]

Again someone who likes to take someones words and quote them in a context that they weren't originally used. I never agrued or even suggested the point that anybody fellow Brit's supporting England MUST be envious or have a chip.

Am I missing something? At what point did Rod directly accuse you personally of doing such a thing? If we're talking about someone taking words and quoting them out of context.

Maybe I am guilty of taking some words out of context and it was all just mere coincidence, but I recall do you specifically misquoting me previously so if anybody is aware of taking someones words and using them out of context you provide the precedent.

As a through and through engishman, I honestly think you've misinterpreted Rod there diceman. He's just not that sort of poster (as everyone here will attest to). Its real easy to miscommunicate on forums and I think that's the case here - no need for any aggrievement.

[jammer]

The question seems to me:

Football rivalry, nowt wrong with it. National hate obviosuly not so good. So how can you convince the scottish public as a whole that the london. press which we are lumped with, don't represent the rest of england? Its not possible right? we're fooked. 

[thetank]

Whether you directed your post towards me or not (lets be honest now) or even if it was "mere coincidence" that it appears directed to what I have previously said I have the right to challenge your arrogance suggestion "just incase" anybody reads your post as a rant against my comments as oppossed to a general rant.

Rod's a chap the wrong end of 35 (he'll love me for pointing that out) who has spend a fair bit of time both sides of the border. This is by no means a new issue for him so I seriously doubt he was referring to you when he made his comments.

It could be, that while reading this thread, the latest words he came across were fresh in his subconcious. That's why he came to choose them when drafting his response. He says he recognizes that you don't expect (hope) a Scot to support England and so doesn't include you in his tirade so perhaps one should give him the benefit of the doubt and not read too much into his choice of language.

After all, you astutely pointed out earlier on...

Maybe it's easier to respond by changing the context of somebody's actual comment to try discredit it.

You have a fair point at the top of this post, you should indeed have right to challenge the arrogance suggestion "just in case" anybody reads the post gets the wrong end of the stick. If you are concerned that's how you may be percieved, maybe it might be a plan to not assume a point raised in a debate of this scope is a personal dig.

Perhaps instead, you should just make it clear that you personally do not subscribe to the things Rod talked about, not insisting that this is what Rod meant.

[thediceman]

No problem, just thought I would address something that appeared/appears to much of a coincedence not to be directed towards words that I used. I call it as I see (read) it.

[Rod Paradise]

Well as I was the person to use the words envy and chip who else was you refering to when you made your point about arrogence???

As I said before, who said what that prompted you to say "it's the expectation that you would, and allegations of envy/chips on the shoulder if you don't" or is it just mere coincidence you just happened to use the words specific words I had used

Whether you directed your post towards me or not (lets be honest now) or even if it was "mere coincidence" that it appears directed to what I have previously said I have the right to challenge your arrogance suggestion "just incase" anybody reads your post as a rant against my comments as oppossed to a general rant.

To quote you "The demand for other nations in Britain to support England strikes me as arrogance. The declaration that not to do so is driven by envy, or recollections of 100's of years ago also seems arrogant". Interesting I mentioned history and used the words you attack as arrogent. Yet another coincedence  . Shame I didn't use them in the context you present.

p.s. I hope not expect  

The fact that I used phrases previously used on the thread when replying to the thread isn't exactly a surprise - as they are in the recent inbox in my mind. I think maybe a bit of getting over yourself is in order.

Anyway while you may not have demanded we support England, you do seem to have the very attitude to someone actively not supporting England that many of the arrogant people I've met come away with. What context was I meant to take your comments in? People have put reasons, you've dismissed them and made comments about envy, chips and 100's of years old history, hardly misrepresentation to use them as examples for what Scots are accused of for being ABE is it?

[thetank]

Maybe I am guilty of taking some words out of context and it was all just mere coincidence, but I recall do you specifically misquoting me previously so if anybody is aware of taking someones words and using them out of context you provide the precedent.

To my recollection, it was not you, but another poster named Gryff whom I quoted "out of context."

It seems clear to me now that if there is a precedent to be provided for taking a post not directed at them personally, but assuming it is, then you may be the person for that.

[Rod Paradise]

The question seems to me:

Football rivalry, nowt wrong with it. National hate obviosuly not so good. So how can you convince the scottish public as a whole that the london. press which we are lumped with, don't represent the rest of england? Its not possible right? we're fooked. 

It's probably not possible Jammer, you're right - from the National News having long segments about hte EFA Cup Final while the SFA Cup Final gets an add on at the end with maybe the goal if we're lucky, to individual sportsmen being 'british' when they win (unless they're english - then they stay english) it is something the scots really get wound up at.... and I'll admit now are too sensitive to a lot of the time.

Also a desire for independance shouldn't lead to national hate - but sometimes unfortunately it does.

[thediceman]

It could be, that while reading this thread, the latest words he came across were fresh in his subconcious. That's why he came to choose them when drafting his response. He says he recognizes that you don't expect (hope) a Scot to support England and so doesn't include you in his tirade so perhaps one should give him the benefit of the doubt and not read too much into his choice of language.

It was just combination of the use of terms which I had exclusively used plus the 100 year history dig that made it reasonable for to think, maybe just maybe, this is just to much of a coincedence not to be directed to me, hence my response. I don't know Ron but it has been known for people to make comments about/to others without personally directing them. Just fellt if someone was taking an arrogance pop at me at least quote me correctly  

[/quote]
Perhaps instead, you should just make it clear that you personally do not subscribe to the things Rod talked about, not insisting that this is what Rod meant.
[/quote]

I did by responding accordingly and challenging it. But then again I'm not so insecure that I'm really that fussed if someone does has taken it the wrong way. Just like a bit of verble sport . I've no issues with people having a pop at me, just prefer it to be for something I have said or done rather then what people think I have done.

[thetank]

Football rivalry, nowt wrong with it. National hate obviosuly not so good. So how can you convince the scottish public as a whole that the london. press which we are lumped with, don't represent the rest of england? Its not possible right? we're fooked. 

I believe it is possible, lets not be too defeatist. Read a tabloid that might give you some false hope. 

The changing of attitudes takes generations though.

Another attitude to dispel, is that of this one. We've tried to do a little bit of that here.

Really there is no justification of an ABE mentality without prejudice and dislike ( well, we know I mean hatred but I'm being nice here )

Colchester Kev quite neatly summed up my feelings on the matter a fair few pages ago...

Interesting thread... but however you dress it up, it really is a football thing, I personally love it when Scotland lose and I fully appreciate the Scottish boys revelling in an England defeat.

We dont want to kick 7 bells out of each other, we just like to have a chirp or give a rub down when the results go the way we want them too.

It is the same for @rse & Spurs fans, we work together, play together,drink together.... but will never want each others team to win anything. Its just the way it is.

I cant wait for Scotland to qualify for a major championship, since they stopped making any more "only fools and horses" we need another bloody good comedy on tv

If within my lifetime, I can retort to a sentence such as the last one, without people thinking I'm prejudiced and a big bag of bitter hate, then I'll be one happy Jock.

[Rod Paradise]

I cant wait for Scotland to qualify for a major championship, since they stopped making any more "only fools and horses" we need another bloody good comedy on tv

If within my lifetime, I can retort to a sentence such as the last one, without people thinking I'm prejudiced and a big bag of bitter hate, then I'll be one happy Jock.

Don't worry Tank - Kiv's a Scotophile anyway -  

[jammer]

to individual sportsmen being 'british' when they win (unless they're english - then they stay english) it is something the scots really get wound up at.... and I'll admit now are too sensitive to a lot of the time.

Is that true though Rod? F'rinstance Colin Jackson the blindingly good 110m hurdler was british, just as Linford Christie was. I don't remember anyone ever emphasising Linford Christie's englishness or favouring him anymore than colin jackson cos he was welsh? Or was that because they were very much part of a team? Equally at wimbledon the middle aged women wave about union jacks, not st georges crosses, for prissy tim henman, and I bet you will do the same for Andrew Murray (in spite of his ABE quotes )

I mean, you hear what you've said a lot, but I'm confused - who are these sportsmen who are only british if they win?

[thetank]

I did by responding accordingly and challenging it. But then again I'm not so insecure that I'm really that fussed if someone does has taken it the wrong way. Just like a bit of verble sport . I've no issues with people having a pop at me, just prefer it to be for something I have said or done rather then what people think I have done.

My point was that the language you used, made it look as if you believed this was already the case, rather than it simply being a possibility.

In turn this brings about the perception that you need to get over yourself.

As it was arrogance you were initially concerned about being accused of, I felt it prudent to point this out.

[Rod Paradise]

to individual sportsmen being 'british' when they win (unless they're english - then they stay english) it is something the scots really get wound up at.... and I'll admit now are too sensitive to a lot of the time.

Is that true though Rod? F'rinstance Colin Jackson the blindingly good 110m hurdler was british, just as Linford Christie was. I don't remember anyone ever emphasising Linford Christie's englishness or favouring him anymore than colin jackson cos he was welsh? Or was that because they were very much part of a team? Equally at wimbledon the middle aged women wave about union jacks, not st georges crosses, for prissy tim henman, and I bet you will do the same for Andrew Murray (in spite of his ABE quotes )

I mean, you hear what you've said a lot, but I'm confused - who are these sportsmen who are only british if they win?

Well Murray's an example, he was a scot until he started winning, then was called british (as far as I can remember he actually pulled up a reporter about that at Wimbledon last year). It'll be interesting to see what he gets called this year (especially as he's off form).Elena Baltacha is another player called Scots all the time - unless she wins a game or 2....

Athletics is one sport where the teams are generally British... so I can't complain too much there.

[thediceman]

The fact that I used phrases previously used on the thread when replying to the thread isn't exactly a surprise - as they are in the recent inbox in my mind. I think maybe a bit of getting over yourself is in order.

Anyway while you may not have demanded we support England, you do seem to have the very attitude to someone actively not supporting England that many of the arrogant people I've met come away with. What context was I meant to take your comments in? People have put reasons, you've dismissed them and made comments about envy, chips and 100's of years old history, hardly misrepresentation to use them as examples for what Scots are accused of for being ABE is it?
[/quote]

To take someone's phrases and then use them in another context which you then label as arrogent shows someone who has no basis for facts and quick to chuck out the insults. Such as your "get over yourself" remark. We're almost there in you admitting your thoughts about me are what you intially stated in you "mere coincedence" statement. It's a shame you label someone arrogent based on what you think they said rather than what they actually said. That is true arrogance. Maybe it is you who needs to get over yourself and the whole poor relations, aren't we victimised. Ever thought my comments where just to address whinging Scot's as I would whinging English, whinging Welsh, whinging anybody.

The constant blaming the whole ABE attitude on the bais British media is laughable as there are numerous factors which contribute to a persons prejuduce. Some people may claim it's just as friendly banter but god forbid I dare suggest it could be a result of deeper nationalistic prejudices. Let's keep it nice and fluffy and not dare consider they is an ugly side to this ABE.  

 

[thetank]

to individual sportsmen being 'british' when they win (unless they're english - then they stay english) it is something the scots really get wound up at.... and I'll admit now are too sensitive to a lot of the time.
.

It's not an issue I'm a fan of either. As Rod says, there's a real danger of being "too sensitive" as a nation.

Whether Liz McCoulgan is British or Scottish when she's winning and losing respectively doesn't really bother me too much.

If truth be told, the problem (if you can call it that) isn't as bad as it was 10 years ago so I see it as kind of a dead issue.

I don't see Murray doing very well at Wimbledon either, hasn't had a chance to build any momentum since his injury, this won't be his year.

Hopefully, that means he won't be over-hyped next year.