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The Camel
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« on: August 22, 2005, 08:49:18 PM »

It's the first hand of the WSOP. You have 10,000 in chips and the blinds are 25-50.

Everyone passes to you in late position and you decide to raise to 150 with AcQs.

The guy sitting next you calls as do both blinds. There is 600 in the pot.

The flop comes .

It is checked around.

The turn is the very pretty .

You have the nuts! Yum yum.

It is checked you and you reasonably bet 500. Now, the guy next to you raises to 1500 and then the BB goes allin for 9850!!!!

What do you do?
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Coca919
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 08:55:22 PM »

Fold. Both must also have the ace and most likely at least one with the flush draw.  600 chips in the pot, plus ur 500 invested on turn times the 3 of you.  2100 chips in the pot, split 3 ways.  You're risking the rest of your chips to get 700 back of what you already have invested (on top of course the rest of your own chips you're putting in which you will get back if split 3 way).  Not worth the risk of going out incase that 20% chance flush comes IMO.
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Robert HM
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 08:57:13 PM »

Call or regret it thereafter. You are ahead, possibly splitting the pot but not behind. Either could be on the nut flush draw but they still have to draw..... oh bum, I'm not sure now, there more I think of the situation the less happy I am.
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 08:59:57 PM »

im guessing the bb has the ace of hearts or diamonds with another heart or diamond and is hoping he gets a caller with another ace and is having a free shot at the flush. as its the 1st hand. maybe pass
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 09:32:12 PM »

fold. I'm guessing they both have the nut flush draws. It's the first hand of the tournament. I can wait.
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2005, 09:34:06 PM »

excellent post coca, i wouldn't have gone thru all that but i'd have folded too Grin
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The Camel
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2005, 09:41:18 PM »

I think it's a must fold...

That's why tikays move with A3 as discussed elsewhere is such an excellent play.

How many times is it correct to muck the nuts in hold'em?

If another player had Ax in tikays hand they would be making a mistake in calling.
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2005, 09:53:32 PM »

Seeing as its hand 1, i would ask for a chip count from both players so evreyone thought i was funny.

Then i would pass.
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2005, 10:19:35 PM »

1 bit of info missing... did the player stump the 10k or is he sponsored?   Grin
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2005, 10:25:22 PM »

1 bit of info missing... did the player stump the 10k or is he sponsored?   Grin

Did he ask "does a flush beat a str8" before re-raising?
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2005, 11:11:16 PM »

I think it's a must fold...



How many times is it correct to muck the nuts in hold'em?


In hold em i think only in very rare situations you will ever fold the nuts....VERY rare

I think there is only the oppurtunity to pass the nuts if there is a flush draw on the board as that is the only thing that would make me pass the nuts in a multi way pot.


If we talk about Omaha i think it is a completely different story, i hope Ben Grundy doesnt mind but i found this in the early stages of his blog, im sure he can explain it much better than me! ;



There are a number of situations that I think in Holdem you will lose all your money. The most obvious is holding KK in the pocket against someone who has AA. If it flops rags then your hand is almost impossible to get away from. Another situation where I think you inevitably lose all your money is when you have AK and it flops an A or a K and two low cards. If your opponent has made a set then you are likely to lose alot or all your money of money practically drawing dead. If you flop a flush and your opponent flops a higher flush its very hard to get away from and the same for straights.

The reason I like playing Omaha cash is that you don?t ever have to be drawing dead. If you play well you should always have a number of outs. Omaha is a game of drawing too or playing the nuts. If you draw to the nuts straight, nut flush and only commit all your chips when you have top set then you are never drawing dead when you commit your money. You still get to trap a number of players who will call you down without the nuts if you do hit. Also because Omaha is a more attractive game for players who like to gamble it tends to attract a lot more bad players than high stakes Holdem cash. I?ve seen some truly terrible players blow well over £ 5000 playing like maniacs.

Talking about Omaha I was playing the £ 2.50/£ 5 on Betfair and had the following interesting hand. I have £ 750 in front of me before this hand. There are 7 players on and there is a pre flop raise of £ 25 and I call on the big blind. 6 players call. I have 9sJsKdAd. It flopped 7c8h10c to give me the nut straight. I lead out a raise of £ 80. Player to my left calls and the player behind him reraises £400 more to play. The player on the button goes all in for £900. So I am sitting with £640 with the nuts and after deliberating I pass. I think this is the right play for the following reasons. Firstly, I am pretty sure at least one of the big raisers already has the nut straight and perhaps even both of them. However, as there is a flush draw and I can?t improve on my straight this is a very dangerous hand to commit all my money. Say for example that raiser A has 9JQ# then he already has the nuts and 7 cards to kills me as he will improve upon my straight. I can assume that either player A or B is drawing to a flush or has a chance of making a full house. As it happened player A had had the Ace Flush draw and two pair and player B had the nut straight and the Q to give him straight improvements. So on the flop if I had gone all in the size of the pot I would have been involved in would have had £ 2405. Player A had a 45% of winning the entire pot. Player B had a 4% chance of winning and I would have had a 0.5% chance of winning all the money. There was about a 50% chance of a split pot between me and player B. These odds just aren?t favorable enough for me to commit all my money. I have passed the nuts before in similar situations when I can?t improve my hand and at least two people have gone crazy on the flop.

What happened? Well a river heart came which gave player A all the money.

now if the same situation was in the early stages of a big HOLD EM tourney.......

you have J9 offsuit

flop comes 7c8dTc

you lead a big bet out and get a caller, then a raiser, then someone who goes all in what do you do?




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The Baron
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2005, 01:43:04 AM »

I would fold with a frown.

Mr Camel, we met in  Las Vegas briefly in Brian's suite. There was a hand from a tournament you had played in Europe somewhere that you discussed, which also occurred on the first hand of the tournament. I cant remember what it was but I remember thinking that was also quite an awful dilemma. What was that hand?

Congrats on your result by the way!  Grin
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 02:01:07 AM by The Baron » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2005, 02:11:12 AM »

Why are you asking this question Camel? You would never in a million years play cards as good as AQs.
Congrats on the win by the way.
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2005, 04:15:54 AM »


Well thank you Keith. I must add, howerver, that the majority of the table, including a man whose game I respect muchly, Simon Zach, took it to be a poor play on my part. I guess my subtlety just went "whoosh".......
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mikkyT
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2005, 10:56:38 AM »

It's the first hand of the WSOP. You have 10,000 in chips and the blinds are 25-50.

Everyone passes to you in late position and you decide to raise to 150 with AcQs.

The guy sitting next you calls as do both blinds. There is 600 in the pot.

The flop comes .

It is checked around.

The turn is the very pretty .

You have the nuts! Yum yum.

It is checked you and you reasonably bet 500. Now, the guy next to you raises to 1500 and then the BB goes allin for 9850!!!!

What do you do?

Is this a real example, and if so what actually happened?
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