Gutshot lose Court case Skills fight... Derek Kelly found Guilty!

[dik9]

Cheers Tony, but that just states the arguement, I know 100% that rake is illegal, so did not expect them to win on that alone, what i was curious was the amount of debate over luck v skill, and the implications on that? was there 2 parts to the charges, or was it just deemed that the gutshot cardroom was illegal?

[tikay]

Cheers Tony, but that just states the arguement, I know 100% that rake is illegal, so did not expect them to win on that alone, what i was curious was the amount of debate over luck v skill, and the implications on that? was there 2 parts to the charges, or was it just deemed that the gutshot cardroom was illegal?

I don't know yet Rich.

[TightEnd]

Found guilty on two charges


A lot of the court reports suggest (but accepting that these are layman reporting) that the debate centred around skill vs luck and indeed the expert witnesses called by the defence focussed on this, or were asked to by Defence QC

[LLevan]

Cheers Tony, but that just states the arguement, I know 100% that rake is illegal, so did not expect them to win on that alone, what i was curious was the amount of debate over luck v skill, and the implications on that? was there 2 parts to the charges, or was it just deemed that the gutshot cardroom was illegal?

As I saw it Derek Kelly's defense was that since poker is a game of skill it wasnt covered by the Gaming Act and therefore he couldnt be guilty as charged since the said act didnt cover poker. However with the new law coming into force in the autumn I'm sure with the publicity that this case has got the government will need to include poker and determine whether a license is required for clubs and as to whether they can charge a rake/service charge(call it what you like but at the end of the day its a %age of the pot) or just an hourly rate to provide the facilities to play poker.
Due to the number of clubs that have opened in the UK in the past 2 years its time for the government to act and make it quite clear where the club owners stand. The casinos would also be delighted to rake pots in their card rooms but under the current legislation they cant and that is 1 of the reasons that they dont promote poker since they clearly dont earn as much per square foot for poker as they do for all the other forms of gaming that take place on their premises.

[robyong]

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear this, both for The Gutshot and selfishly, DTD. This has dire serious consequences for DTD if we do not get our Certficate of Consent on the 25th Jan.......I was really hoping this would not turn out like this.........damn

[Royal Flush]

Cheers Tony, but that just states the arguement, I know 100% that rake is illegal, so did not expect them to win on that alone, what i was curious was the amount of debate over luck v skill, and the implications on that? was there 2 parts to the charges, or was it just deemed that the gutshot cardroom was illegal?

As I saw it Derek Kelly's defense was that since poker is a game of skill it wasnt covered by the Gaming Act and therefore he couldnt be guilty as charged since the said act didnt cover poker. However with the new law coming into force in the autumn I'm sure with the publicity that this case has got the government will need to include poker and determine whether a license is required for clubs and as to whether they can charge a rake/service charge(call it what you like but at the end of the day its a %age of the pot) or just an hourly rate to provide the facilities to play poker.
Due to the number of clubs that have opened in the UK in the past 2 years its time for the government to act and make it quite clear where the club owners stand. The casinos would also be delighted to rake pots in their card rooms but under the current legislation they cant and that is 1 of the reasons that they dont promote poker since they clearly dont earn as much per square foot for poker as they do for all the other forms of gaming that take place on their premises.

As of later this year casinos will be allowed to rake cash games.

[dik9]

Is there anywhere that supplies manuscripts of court cases? I presume there is? How much and where from......anyone

[dik9]

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear this, both for The Gutshot and selfishly, DTD. This has dire serious consequences for DTD if we do not get our Certficate of Consent on the 25th Jan.......I was really hoping this would not turn out like this.........damn

Rob, have you not already got the certificate of consent?

[Wardonkey]

I expect Derek to appeal.

Gutshot may be able to continue operating until the appeal is heard.

It's not over yet.

[BrumBilly]

I can't imagine not being able to pop into the Gutshot for a game when in London. I much prefer the atmosphere there than any casino I've been to.

[Colchester Kev]

I personally think its a bad thing .... for the following reasons.

I am almost 100% certain that the emergence of provincial (unlicensed) card rooms has been for the good of poker, in that it has forced the big casino suits to be forced to start taking notice of poker players and amending their thought process when it comes to looking after them, we now have better comps, added money, better structures etc etc ... would we have had these if there was no competition ? I think not.

I just hope things keep evolving, because with less choice of where to play .. the more chance the big boys will get complacent and go back to the shove them in the corner out of the way, if they dont like it they can fk off , where else are they going to play

Like someone pointed out earlier, not everyone is lucky enough to live within easy travelling distance of DtD.

Im sure people will say well why cant everyone go down the legal route like Rob has .... well maybe they will, maybe they are all watching DtD like hawks and waiting to see how viable it is to go down the "right" path.
 
Ask Rob if he thinks he would have been able to sell his dream to investors, I think we all know the answer to that ..... Not a chance in hell, It needed someone with the balls and financial clout to do it first, if in 12 months times people see that "legal" can still mean profit then fine ... But until such time, keep your fingers crossed that the Gala's and Grosvenors etc dont get complacent and stop making progress toward poker players.

[The Baron]

I personally think its a bad thing .... for the following reasons.

I am almost 100% certain that the emergence of provincial (unlicensed) card rooms has been for the good of poker, in that it has forced the big casino suits to be forced to start taking notice of poker players and amending their thought process when it comes to looking after them, we now have better comps, added money, better structures etc etc ... would we have had these if there was no competition ? I think not.

I just hope things keep evolving, because with less choice of where to play .. the more chance the big boys will get complacent and go back to the shove them in the corner out of the way, if they dont like it they can fk off , where else are they going to play

Like someone pointed out earlier, not everyone is lucky enough to live within easy travelling distance of DtD.

Im sure people will say well why cant everyone go down the legal route like Rob has .... well maybe they will, maybe they are all watching DtD like hawks and waiting to see how viable it is to go down the "right" path.
 
Ask Rob if he thinks he would have been able to sell his dream to investors, I think we all know the answer to that ..... Not a chance in hell, It needed someone with the balls and financial clout to do it first, if in 12 months times people see that "legal" can still mean profit then fine ... But until such time, keep your fingers crossed that the Gala's and Grosvenors etc dont get complacent and stop making progress toward poker players.

Great post Kiv.

[Dingdell]

I just rang them - they are open.

[boldie]

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear this, both for The Gutshot and selfishly, DTD. This has dire serious consequences for DTD if we do not get our Certficate of Consent on the 25th Jan.......I was really hoping this would not turn out like this.........damn

Rob, I don't think this will impact DTD. Gutshot was a high profile (not as high profile as DTD obviously but still) venture that was operating illegally. I think the GC wanted to make an example out of them.
I would half expect them to give you your certificate of consent because you have gone about it the legal/right way. I reckon they will feel this way to and approve your application maybe also as an example as to how it should be done as I reckon they just feel pokerclubs should follow certain rules.

I am not on the GC unfortunatly so it's just my humble opinion..and it can be discarded as easily as yesterdays paper so in the mean time I'll just be crossing my fingers for you.

[The Dundonian]

I personally think its a bad thing .... for the following reasons.

I am almost 100% certain that the emergence of provincial (unlicensed) card rooms has been for the good of poker, in that it has forced the big casino suits to be forced to start taking notice of poker players and amending their thought process when it comes to looking after them, we now have better comps, added money, better structures etc etc ... would we have had these if there was no competition ? I think not.

I just hope things keep evolving, because with less choice of where to play .. the more chance the big boys will get complacent and go back to the shove them in the corner out of the way, if they dont like it they can fk off , where else are they going to play

Like someone pointed out earlier, not everyone is lucky enough to live within easy travelling distance of DtD.

Im sure people will say well why cant everyone go down the legal route like Rob has .... well maybe they will, maybe they are all watching DtD like hawks and waiting to see how viable it is to go down the "right" path.
 
Ask Rob if he thinks he would have been able to sell his dream to investors, I think we all know the answer to that ..... Not a chance in hell, It needed someone with the balls and financial clout to do it first, if in 12 months times people see that "legal" can still mean profit then fine ... But until such time, keep your fingers crossed that the Gala's and Grosvenors etc dont get complacent and stop making progress toward poker players.

Well said Kev, the difference in what is now on offer at Gala Dundee since the opening of the private club Caplins has been marked!