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Author Topic: EPT Vic - How long do we have to accept this  (Read 6822 times)
Milkybarkid
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« on: October 01, 2005, 12:12:50 PM »

Here's the story

I have posted before on this subject but now i am really annoyed.

Everyone knows that alot of players were angry with structure in Barcelona. Players parting with 4000 Euros only to find its a 45 min clock with blind levels missing. All just to get rid of players in time for the final.

So before i bought into the Vic EPT event i made a point of speaking to the management and asking what the clock was going to be for the EPT event. I quote, "We are 99% sure it will be an hour clock."

My response,"So if it is sold out it will be an hour clock."

His response, "Yes."

So after the debacle of the draw for seats which took forever, they realised they had the wrong chips out so took ages to change them. The announcement came over the loud speaker," It will be a 45 minute clock for the first three levels."

Well i let one of the managers know my fury soon after. He said, "The management reserve the right to alter the structure."

Great. Not only do they miss out the 75/150 blind level but now a 45 min clock for 3 levels. So basically you lose 1 hour 45 minutes from what should be the first four levels of the tournament.

These tournaments are meant to be the most prestigious on the European circuit. Yet Barcelona and London in series two have not been anywhere near as player friendly as Deauville and Monte Carlo in series one which were both superb.

The main aim just seems to be get rid of players ASAP to get the final done and dusted so the TV crew can get home in time.
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Heid
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« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2005, 12:21:17 PM »

One more straw to add to the camel's back - soon enough players will be pushed too far and en masse people will be willing to act on what Harry D has been proposing for a while now.

It's not right, you are completely correct, but until the majority of player's think like you do ... things are going to stay the same Sad

Heid
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M3boy
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« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2005, 12:24:02 PM »

This sort of thing was EXACTLY the reason I didnt play.

The quote I got from the management on structure was :

"We dont know the structure yet, it will be decided by the TV Crew"

JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Heid
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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2005, 12:26:16 PM »

That is pretty outrageous - I wonder how much emotion that would stir up if you repeated that line on a few forums?

Sort of puts it all into perspective doesn't it?

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Milkybarkid
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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2005, 12:29:50 PM »

Its just amazing that players have taken their seats, paid their £3000.... and then get told the structure for an EPT has changed at the last minute.

This isn't just a game at your local pub. These tournaments should be the best in Europe. The EPT should have a standard structure for all of its tournaments decided before the series begins and published on their website. Simple as that.
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M3boy
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2005, 12:34:43 PM »

Yes but it has been said before,,,,

as long as people continue to play these events, they will continue to "do what they like"

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TightEnd
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2005, 12:41:55 PM »

Ben


As you know i feel strongly about this sort of stuff...I started the thread about the shenanigans in Barca.


Part of the problem is, I am afraid to say, the Vic's terrible attitude towards tournaments and it's concentration on the need to fill up the cash tables. Part of it is the kowtowing to PokerStars and TV. More so the TV I suppose, after all Stars oil the wheels of the whole thing


I assume you played yesterday. However I would certainly speak/write to John Duthie. I would also do the same to Harry Demetriou, who has posted some interesting stuff about the needs of players and the lack of player power

I feel a bit vindicated that I saved my £3k and chose to play the gutshot. Sure I would have been dead money in a £3k event, but game selection is important, and the £10k added at the Gutshot made the choice a no-brainer

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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2005, 01:34:39 PM »

Ben, I feel very strongly about this too, I think it's a disgrace and I would support any action against it
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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2005, 01:44:04 PM »

Is there a poker player union? if not then there should be with the ammount of money being thrown around, or at least some sort of body looking out for the players interest's.
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Milkybarkid
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2005, 04:50:06 PM »

Not a players union at the moment thought there was some discussion on here a while back.

Players will be plaers though. If they turn up to play they will do regardless of the structure.

I was going to spend 4000 Euros playing EPT Baden.... i'm thinking again now... i may not go.
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Milkybarkid
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2005, 05:47:17 PM »

Another player and Blondites opionion!

http://devore.typepad.com/wsop_latest_news/2005/10/london_ept.html
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Milkybarkid
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2005, 05:48:17 PM »

Meant to say thats from Mike Lacey's blog!
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doubleup
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2005, 08:52:35 AM »

From the live update, it appears that they played on the second day until there were 12 players left - is this correct?  If so, that is also a mistake - play should have been exaxtly the same time as the first day - what if the 2 sets of players were on different blind levels?
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2005, 10:02:47 AM »

This was my first EPT event as in the past for one reason or another I have not been able to attend any of the previous events. I was very much looking forward to it and was well aware of previous concerns regarding the speed of play or structure.

I'm not sure where I read it but prior to the event starting I (along with numeorus other players) was pretty convinced that the levels were going to be one hour in duration so it was a bit of a shock to find that they were announced at 45 mins duration. However that merely exaggerated what was going to be a structure that was on the fast side anyway and it is diappointing to see that this area of concern has yet to be sorted out. Major/bigger buy in tournaments demand fairer slower structures that will give players a fairer crack at being able to outplay their opponents and to not do this does the players a great disservice. Usually the argument for faster structures is that the numbers need to be reduced due to limitations of time but I for one prefer it to be faster early on and slower as the tournament proceeds. This has the effect of reducing numbers early on whilst giving players more time to play the deeper they go into a torunament.

In defence of The Grosvenor (NO! I am not ill and am not trying to suck up to them) if I were only allowed to charge £50 per entrant in a poker tournament I wouldn't want to tie up all those staff, facilities and playing areas for two days for a mere £1200) so perhaps that area of the gaming law needs addressing too. If we want quality events then we have to be prepared to pay for them and I for one would not object and would actively campaign for higher deductions and charges in the UK in exchange for better facilities and playing conditions. I wouldn't want to pay too much of course but we have to consider all parties in the poker world like it or not.

Of greater concern, however, was the apparent lack of understanding as to why both of the first days needed to be of exactly the same duration. ie they both had to have exactly the same amount of time played. I had disccussed this with John Duthie prior to the event starting and also pointed it out to the poker room management but whilst John already uderstood and agreed the point I'm not sure management did. (Not sure John has any influence at all over such matters anyway but at least he can have discussions with the card room management at venues where there are multiple first days and raise issues on behalf of the players as he himself is a player).

Perhaps El Blondie or Tikay can give us an idea at what point/level each of the first days ended?

This will be of absolutely no consolation to Dave but if we assume he got to Level 12 on the Friday (before getting knocked out on the bubble for that day) whilst play may have ended on Level 10 on the Saturday he would have every right to claim that he went further than others in the tounrnament and reached the prize money. As things stand however he simply finishes outside the money despite possibly having gone further than some of his final day (Sunday) appearing rivals all of whom are in the money. (PLease note that the reverse may also be true and that Saturdays 13th placed finisher may well have played longer and gone deeper in the tournament than some of the Friday final twelve but hopefully you all get the point).

The bottom line is that that unless the exact same time is played on each of the first two days they cannot possibly be deemed equal first days and as such would probably be deemed illegal or in the very least bring into question the integrity of this event.

I do not know how many levels were played on the first and/or second day but this policy of playing down to 12 on each of the first days does not make the the first two days equal. Whilst it is possible exactly the same amount of time was played on both first days it would be an amazing stroke of luck if this prooved to be the case.

The structure of an event is something on which we can vote with our feet but hopefully with consultation and time things in that area will improve.

Making changes to rules and structures in the interests of the game and due to time considerations etc etc is also something that will take place from time to time and we all have to accept despite this despite the fact that we will not always like those changes

(BTW In the brochure they said they would play down to the last 16 players or 4-00am on the Friday and to be honest that's what they should have done although it may have been safer to stop at 20).

BUT.....................we cannot accept anything that will not permit us all to play on a level playing field and this non equality of these first days is something that must be immediately addressed and not allowed to happen again.

My intentions are to play in future EPT events whenever I can because I genuinely believe that The EPT deserves and needs to succeed but things will definitely have to improve if it's going to get my support.


Well there are my 58 million pence worth
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2005, 10:11:52 AM »

PS I am going to have to take some time to set up a proper message board or forum for the database of poker tournaments but this will take place at some stage soon.

I have mentioned this to a few others and they are keen to assist but I would sooner take some time to set this up properly rather than do my usual hot headed rush into it type of thing as I want to get this right.

The ultimate aim is to have a players association but like most things this is a lot harder to realise than most can imagine and if it's going to succeed then it has to be planned correctly.
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