Low limit Razz

[Muahahahaha]

I'm playing really bad holdem at the moment, so either I give up poker for a few days ( Bob Hope ) or I try something different to get the grey cells ticking over.

So this is a cheap little HORSE sng. 

PokerStars Game #9107416025: Tournament #46284862, $3.00+$0.40 HORSE (Razz
Limit) - Level III (40/80) - 2007/03/26 - 22:19:57 (ET)
Table '46284862 1' 8-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ynotAA (1442 in chips)
Seat 2: jefftune (1461 in chips)
Seat 3: pixie04 (1597 in chips)
Seat 4: Terminalnet (1392 in chips)
Seat 5: Darbu (1452 in chips)
Seat 6: IhateMondays (1583 in chips)
Seat 7: Mwahahahaha (1759 in chips)
Seat 8: mucktheriver (1314 in chips) is sitting out
pixie04: posts the ante 8
Terminalnet: posts the ante 8
Darbu: posts the ante 8
IhateMondays: posts the ante 8
Mwahahahaha: posts the ante 8
mucktheriver: posts the ante 8
ynotAA: posts the ante 8
jefftune: posts the ante 8
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to ynotAA [ ]
Dealt to jefftune []
Dealt to pixie04 []
Dealt to Terminalnet []
Dealt to Darbu []
Dealt to IhateMondays []
Dealt to Mwahahahaha [ ]
Dealt to mucktheriver []
mucktheriver: brings in for 12
ynotAA: folds
jefftune: folds
pixie04: calls 12
Terminalnet: raises 28 to 40
Darbu: folds
IhateMondays: calls 40
Mwahahahaha: calls 40
mucktheriver: folds
pixie04: calls 28
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to pixie04 [] []
Dealt to Terminalnet [] []
Dealt to IhateMondays [] []
Dealt to Mwahahahaha [ ] []
IhateMondays: checks
Mwahahahaha: bets 40
pixie04: calls 40
Terminalnet: calls 40
IhateMondays: calls 40
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to pixie04 [ ] []
Dealt to Terminalnet [ ] []
Dealt to IhateMondays [ ] []
Dealt to Mwahahahaha [ ] [ ]
Mwahahahaha: checks
pixie04: checks
Terminalnet: bets 80
IhateMondays: calls 80
Mwahahahaha: calls 80
pixie04: folds
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [ ] []
Dealt to IhateMondays [ ] []
Dealt to Mwahahahaha [ ] []
Mwahahahaha: checks
Terminalnet: bets 80
IhateMondays: calls 80
Mwahahahaha: calls 80
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Mwahahahaha [ ] []
mucktheriver is connected
mucktheriver has returned
Mwahahahaha: checks
Terminalnet: checks
IhateMondays: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Terminalnet: shows [ ] (Lo: J,6,4,3,2)
IhateMondays: shows [  ] (Lo: 9,7,3,2,A)
Mwahahahaha: mucks hand
IhateMondays collected 876 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 876 | Rake 0
Seat 1: ynotAA folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 2: jefftune (button) folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 3: pixie04 folded on the 5th Street
Seat 4: Terminalnet showed [ ] and lost with Lo: J,6,4,3,2
Seat 5: Darbu folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 6: IhateMondays showed [  ] and won (876) with Lo:
9,7,3,2,A
Seat 7: Mwahahahaha mucked [ ]
Seat 8: mucktheriver folded on the 3rd Street

Ok, so if I'm playing any sort of decent poker I fold this, but I'm not, so I didn't   

I'm playing it because I've got a nice small card showing & can maybe represent something later ( now, don't all rush to tell me that's the thinking of  a future champion, some of us are just born to it    >:?  )

Then I get an 8, and after the first check, I'm thinking a small bet might get rid of a few, to give me a chance of taking it down ( still MAGNIFICENT logic , I'm sure you'll agree    )

But now the serious bit.

On 5th street I hit the ten

At this point I basically give up, coz noone wins a razz hand with a ten.  BUT on looking at it, at the moment I MUST have the best hand.  After all my poncing about, instead of praying for an A, & giving up when I don't hit it, should I now be jamming the pot, even though there are still two cards to come ?

On 6th street, I'm still namby- pambying about when I have the best hand, even though it's a crap hand.

My question.

Could I have won this hand by a bit of decent play over the final streets, or would a decent player have called me all the way , because my hand was so bad.

Normally, if I were playing any sort of decent game I wouldn't be in this hand, I literally only play razz hands when the cards are doing it for me ( ie NO skill involved at all ).  But given that I might possibly play a crap hand in the future, is it possible to redeem oneself if I suddenly wake up in the middle of a hand ?   

[Zebediah]

I doubt you would have lost anyone at any point, through a bet.
Even when you went ahead on 5th, they know you have 10 low which they will draw against.

The only successful time to bluff or push people off hands in Razz is on 4th or 5th if they hit a bad card on 4th or 2 bad cards on 4th and 5th and you hit sweet cards then you can take it down, otherwise they will chase all the way.

It is also very rare for people to fold at 6th or 7th (in fact you rarely should by this point yourself unless, you have a full house or something), so at this point you are value betting only.(This rule can change on a bubble).

In your case I would have value bet against one opponent on 6th, but not 2 opponents as they both probably have a lot of outs to beat you, plus if one or both hit on 7th, you are committed to calling on 7th.

But really I would have folded at the start. I only bluff in Razz against poor up cards against my opponents, and you are going to be v lucky to be able to steal against 2 other runners with good up cards and doubly so when one has raised.
The standard rule is 8 low or better to start a hand, if it is 8 low, preferable the 8 is in the hole with a good card showing.
I would also have folded on 4th rather than bet, at this point you are a massive dog in this hand as you are more than likely going to have to hit 2 cards under 8 that don't pair to have the best hand by 7th.

The other successful bluffing period is short handed and blinds increasing, you can take antes fairly easily with a raise with just the lowest card showing.
The tight early, aggressive later SNG strategy is a definite for Razz.

[matt674]

I pass on 3rd here - you are dealt a 9 lo and as zebediah says the rule normally is 8 lo or better starting requirement. If the table was short handed and it was cheap to see 4th then maybe i limp but there has been a bring in, call then a raise and another call before the action gets to you. You have a good card showing but with that action its going to be unlikely that you'll be presented with a bluffing opportunity as it will take a miracle for you to hit perfect cards and all of your opponents to receive bad cards.

Your only on level 3 of the tourney - I find with Razz early on there are so many bad players out there that its still easy enough to accrue chips early by only having to play the good hands and more often than not someone else is willing to call you all the way with a 9 or 10 lo. Pass here and wait for a better opportunity.

[Muahahahaha]

Just  to prove that I do try & take this stuff on board.

Played a $5 HORSE MTT last night, only 50 odd starters, so only the top six got paid.

Made 5th,

Basically I played the Razz as per instructions & those rounds were consistantly among my most profitable.

Cheers lads,

What sort of commision do I owe you on the $10 profit I made    ?

[matt674]

5 bucks each should just about cover it

I find early on in razz tourneys just letting the cards play themselves usually works and letting others make mistakes chasing miracle draws. The ante is usually very low compared to the stack size and unless you get really unlucky with the bring in its not costing you much to sit and be patient. Even though you are only playing big hands early on you will always get one or two people calling you down during the first few levels of the tourney "because its still cheap enough to try and hit the 4 out miracle".

When the antes and bring in increase sufficiently enough towards the business end of the tourney this is when you can think about making some moves. All of a sudden with it being more expensive to play a hand calling all the way from 3rd to 7th you will find that all of a sudden instead of their being between 3 to 6 players in every pot you are probably heads up or at most have 2 opponents. Now if you have low cards on show regardless of your hole cards and your opponent gets dealt a bad card more often than not you can bluff him off the pot, this should also be aided by your earlier tight image and now at these levels the pots are worth stealing.

Still be wary of calling stations - with limit poker you always seem to find one player who's been lucky with his strategy of call everything and hope in the early rounds and has accumulated chips and thinks he can win the tournament with the same strategy throughout! Do not attempt to bluff these people, you cant force calling stations to fold in limit games.