Am I Horrible For Doing this? Would you have done the same???

[johnbhoy76]

Ok first to set the scene...

£25 F/O at Grosevnor Southampton, Wed night just gone.

Sat at the table playing away and throughout the banter, one gentleman (lets call him Bob) is quite obviously trying to build up an imag of himself as a tight, aggressive, experienced player. He is regularly doling out advice to people on how they should have played their hand and constantly telling everyone that he only plays the nuts. I don't have a problem with that, as he is obviously playing the game and even trying to be helpful. It does get a bit tiresome though, but I keep my thoughts to myself. He is also letting it be known that he knows a few people; is trying to build up his buddies image too.

Quite early in night I look down and see  . I raise to 300 (3 bb) from an early position. Everyone folds to Lady (lets call her Doris) on the cut off re-raisesto 800. Fold-fold-to BB (lets call him Beavis) who puts in a massive raise to about 2800.

I am going to the fold, but want to build up my own image. So I hum and ha and then state to the table....'I have a hand...but I dunno if I can play to this. Doris is a rock and that re-raise is rather scary'. I happen to know she is very tight. Beavis is also relatively inexperienced and gave away a massive tell.

So I folded. Doris folds, Beavis takes pot.

People ask what I laid down. I state 'Queens'. At which point Bob and a few of his mateys p*ss themselves laughing. Bob says 'I push every time in that position' and proceeds to give me a lecture. I stay cool and even have a chuckle, but after he doesn't let up I tell him that I don't think QQ is that good a hand in the situation and that its too early in the tournament to risk my life.

Beavis then inflames it all when asked what he has and says he had deuces! They all p*ss themselves laughing. I stay cool and say 'nice bluff...good luck to u playing like that'. (I've already milked all my chips from him and am v happy having him on my right). The pi*staking continues and I say something along the lines of 'well thats why I'll go deeper in this tourney than u lot'. Bob then says 'I win tournaments sunshine!'.

Jibes continue and whenever I raise the jokes come out about me having KK or AA. Very nice for me. I'm raising with all sorts of junk by now!

Beavis later confides to me that he did indeed have AA, which is a positive for me obviously.

Now to the main part of the plot....

A little later on I look down to see  in second position. Same suits as last time! This time I raise 2.5 bb to 500. All folds round to Bob in the SB. He calls. Got a read, I know he's on an Ace or King ...probably with high kicker. Bobs obviously not as good as he makes out :-) He calls. Beavis in BB folds.

Pot is 1200.

Flop comes...

 

BEAUTIFUL!

I quickly check and Bob fires in 500 chips. I call. Pot is 2200.

Turn...

 

I check, Bob puts me all in for my last 5000 or so.

Naturally I call.

Cards on their backs, Bob droans 'I've been caught out'....

He has 

Now for the juicy bit...

River comes...

 

I sit stock still trying to register what I thought I had seen.

I hear 'unlucky mate' and then see Bob saying 'yeah I got caught out'. He picks up his Ace and mucks it!!!!!

Well! All my christmases have come at once! I've escaped a bad beat, made lots of chips and have a chance for some sweet revenge on this fella!

Another players says 'No Bob...u won that with a straight!'

He says...'Oh yeah', retrieves his cards and starts to pull in the pot!

I say 'Er no. Leave those chips alone they're mine. You mucked your hand'

To which chaos lets loose! He says he only mucked one card. I tell him his hand is mucked. At which point he spews some drivel about having a similar situation recently in a card school. He stated that the cards were on their backs and everyone knew what they were. He stated that as such, he could then muck the card and take the pot. I told him that was not the case and sorry, but u muck one card your hand is mucked. I advise him to get a ruling.

He argues the toss with the card room manager who backs me up. Eventually he has to back down. He handled it ok, but was fuming (red and shaking quite a good indication??? :-) )

To compound matters, he asked me which my car was in the car park so that he could key it!!!! I then had the pleasure of him pushing all in on my blind and taking his last 5000 chips.

He disappeared under a cloud. Not very happy.

I'm pleased to say that I was able then to take most of the cacklers chips of them to take to the final table.

Justice?

Anyway....whats your thoughts on this. Would you have done the same? I believe I would not have been so stubborn over the ruling had the game been played out in a good nature prior to the incident. I might even have let it go.

Was I right to insist? Or am I a horrible nasty man???

In short, F*ck him!

If he's too stupid not to have worked out that he was looking for a King then that's his problem.

He should go back to playing for play money if he can't read a flop.

If he was just a beginer then fair enough I'd do the decent thing and tell him he'd won with a straight but since he is the fount of all poker knowledge then he gets no leeway when he makes an arse of things  

[dik9]

Glad to see the spirit of poker is alive and well 

[ariston]

However, if the dealer has pushed the pot over the bet line and "awarded" it to you there is no longer a live pot to claim and it is yours to keep if you wish.

incorrect- dealers make mistakes all the time and if the mistake is pointed out before the next hand is dealt it should have been corrected. The fact the TD ruled in favour of you is just beyond belief. If there was the old oh I dont know how much is in the pot argument then the bets should be put back and it is easy to work the pot out.
the thread is titled "am i a horrible person for doing this"- DEFINATELY  " would you do the same"- never in a million years.

[boldie]

When the cards go on their backs you have reached "showdown"

If a hand has been showndown then it is no longer possible to muck.

thems the rules. you and the TD got it wrong. simple as that really.

[ariston]

On a side note how the hell do you manage to get a TD that doesnt know the most basic of rules? Where do they find them from?

[boldie]

On a side note how the hell do you manage to get a TD that doesnt know the most basic of rules? Where do they find them from?

If I had a 1£ for every TD in the UK that didn't know the rules I could play Ivey and golf and give him 20 shots (even though I am crap at it) play 18 holes for 3 days and still walk away with enough money to buy myself into the main event.

[doubleup]

disagree with any of you defending on the "he didn't know the rules" argument.
he had the best hand and no matter what sort of person he is he wins the pot. Win with dignity not win at all costs. How anyone can justify taking the pot is beyond me. I have seen several instances on cash games (including me in the pots and declaring the other guys hand for him) where players table there cards not realising they have made a backdoor 3 flush or something silly- Any player who doesn't declare a hand once he's seen it and then claims a pot is a cheat in my books. He openly admits he knew the guy had hit his str8 and yet still claims the pot- sorry you're a cheat.

I think you are being a bit harsh.  IMO there should have been no dispute in this situation had the dealer/manager been competent.  I don't think that players should have to do anything more than abide by floor decisions, otherwise you get all sorts of potential problems.  In my earlier days of playing I lost a huge pot with AhJh vs 22 on a double paired board in exactly the same circumstances with the manager giving exactly the same incorrect ruling.

As far a cash is concerned, a player requires all his cards to collect the pot.  I would only concede the pot in a cash game if I thought it was in my long term interests i.e. a beginner or a regular donator. 

[MANTIS01]

However, if the dealer has pushed the pot over the bet line and "awarded" it to you there is no longer a live pot to claim and it is yours to keep if you wish.

incorrect

A major problem with poker is the lack of definitive and universal rules. The rules of the house take precedence. This situation has occurred at my table in two different Grosvenor casinos and on both occasions the card-room manager has been called. Both times the table has been informed that at Grosvenor casinos an awarded pot cannot be retrieved.

I think the sooner universally accepted rules are implemented as standard the better.

Often though we are talking about a moral issue rather than a technical ruling. I would never take a pot I didn't feel I was entitled to. I think you do the game and yourself a real dis-service if you don't play like a gentleman. Winning fairly and with integrity is what you want.

I was at the Broadway in Birmingham on Friday night where there was a violent fist-fight over a "burn-card" ruling. I watched 2 guys lumping seven bells of shit out of each other over whether the deuce of hearts should be allowed to stand.

When all is said and done this is a game. Talk of "keying" cars etc...is quite pathetic in my mind. Nothing is as important as how you conduct yourself on the way to victory....even victory itself.

[robyong]

I think you know you did wrong here in the heat of the momnet, by starting this thread you probabaly  are admitting it to yourself.

However, don't beat yourself up to much, as I know quite a few players that would have done the same as you, maybe not the people posting here, but certainly you are not alone in "trying it on" in the poker world. it happens all the time, and from people who would swear bllind they wear halos.

Cheers Rob

[iceman]

can this be the same ariston complaining of someone cheating as the ariston who posed the hypophetical question that if you could see players hole cards online you should take full advantedge and take em for all you could?!

[yellowmagic]

Are you horrible for doing this? - no
Would I have done the same? - probably not

"cards speak" - they just lie there mute, they need a spokesperson. This should be the dealer, of course, and the players involved, but in the real world outdraws can easily be overlooked. In this case, you overlooked it deliberately for a split second: I've known worse things happen.

'I'll key your car' is funny.

Any chance of coming back to the Broadway, Richard? Your presence is missed... 

[ariston]

can this be the same ariston complaining of someone cheating as the ariston who posed the hypophetical question that if you could see players hole cards online you should take full advantedge and take em for all you could?!

hypothetical question being the key part and it was in response to another thread. Don't ever question my integrity iceman.

[iceman]

you left your integrity open to question. dont ever tell me what i may or may not do.

[ariston]

I take slight offence (only very slight) to being called a cheat, as I am not IMO.

At all sports I play hard and fair. The difference here is that, as is becoming clear, I was not 100% sure of the ruling myself. Hence why I advised him to call for the TD; beckoned him over myself. If the TD had awarded in his favour I would have dropped the issue without a seconds thought.

I have always been told that as soon as the players cards hit the muck then they're mucked. I was also aware that rules seem to vary from venue to venue, which is another reason I asked/advised for a ruling. Naturally, I was taking some advantage of this when playing the pr*ck in question. In that respect, on the night, I do believe that I was a nasty horrible man...

One reason for posting this, that I should have made clearer...and should perhaps have posed the question outright was...'Was the ruling correct?'

It appears that it wasn't.

What I will do when I next see 'Bob', is apologise and tell him that the wrong ruling was given - whilst also warning him off making idle threats in the future ;-)

Another reason for posting is that I thought it would bring about some colourful responses, which it certainly has. The number one reason why I like this forum.

you know in your heart you were out of order which is why the post described what a nasty person this was so trying to justify your actions. I don't care if it was Osama Bin Laden in this hand with you by taking the pot when you know you had lost you were cheating- you knew he had hit his str8 and still thought you would keep your mouth shut and take it when the dealer had made a cock up. It's the players responsibility to protect some form of integrity in the game as well as the officials. A bit like a snooker player calling a foul on himself or a golfer moving his ball accidentally when moving twigs and stuff in the rough (if they don't they are in effect cheating)

[ariston]

you left your integrity open to question. dont ever tell me what i may or may not do.

the question was a hypothetical one aimed at starting debate/discussion (which it did). My integrity is fine but if you would like to take this off forum by pm or maybe question my integrity at a live game don't expect me to be so polite. I don't know you from adam so please be very careful with what you post about me on an open forum.