Tournament Hand of the Week: October 8th

[JungleCat03]

i flat call and lead at the pot for about one half to three quarters of the pot. Im obv willing to go broke with middle set on the flop. There are very few cards that can appear on the turn which will get your opponent interested in, if he isnt on the flop, unless ones that are beating you like TT JJ etc.... lead weak after a litte dwell, i half expect a reraise here, in which instance i call and check raise the turn all in.

Yeah not leading has some problems imo and makes your hand a bit transparent if you then check/raise.

Leading with a weakish half pot bet almost ensures that a big ace will riase to protect against the flush draw and a smaller ace may well call.

If he doesn't raise, well at least you are building the pot to a size where you will have a better shot at stacking him.

Another factor is if you don't bet you risk letting a hand like QQ KK JJ make a bigger set. Whilst this seems unlikely and he would only have 2 outs to do so, the problem is he is unlikely to put many, if any chips in with these hands unless he improves but when he does, you will go broke. So the reverse implied odds are problematic as by slowplaying vs these big pair hands you either win pretty much the current pot (maybe plus a smaller bet on a later street) or you get stacked.

I like Actionman's play of the hand personally. It's deceptive and gives a player plenty of chances to hang himself into playing for his stack.

[MANTIS01]

Some good points regarding both checking and betting out so far.

Just out of interest...for those who bet out here...if you get one caller how do you play it if the flush card hits the turn...is it bet out again?

Part II

So I went the other route and checked my set, Sam checked,and John bet 2,500. I dwelt up and re-checked my cards before making the call. Sam scowls at me and John, counts chips and then mucks his cards in disgust (I think he had Kings).

So we go to the turn with 10,200 chips in the pot and a remaining stack of 11,700.

The Turn

The turn brings the....

 

and we have a board of

      

What is your move now? Do you lead out or do you continue to slow play?

I decide to remain consistent with my strategy and check to John...but he now checks behind as well. What sort of hand could he be holding? Doesn't A-x fire again here? And what is your strategy now for the river? What will you do if it is a heart and what will you do if it is a blank?

Further action and the river to come on Friday....

[Flea]

IMO you're both trapping, I reckon John has AJ although may still be worried if a heart (other than the 3) comes down.

If a blank lower than a jack comes on river I'd be tempted to push all-in which after the check on the turn looks a) weak and b) a steal and then pray for a call. Anything else and you have to be careful of either being behind or if a queen or King comes down he may think you've hit a straight or bigger two pair in which case you either put a stop bet or a small sweetener bet in.

[pswnio]

I check on the turn hoping he'll have a little tickle with his ace.

With AK he probably reraises pre. With AQ I'd expect him to fire here again on the turn. He *might* have flat called pre flop with AJ and then checked behind to trap. He might be on the flush draw, though if he'd taken a stab on the flop with that instead of checking behind, I'd have expected the bet to be bigger. Can't discount it though. Also, with the Ah out - do you think he'd call a raise from tight Sam with a suited connector?

I wouldn't put JJ or TT past him here. Potential weakness shown on the flop, why not have a stab at it? With you calling, TT is the kind of hand he probably wouldn't fire with a second time with on the turn, and if he did hit a set of jacks, it's very likely he might check it (although I think he makes a mistake if he does).

If the river comes a blank, I put in a value bet. Stacks aren't deep enough to make it 2/3 pot, really. I'd make it about 4k. If he comes over the top he might just be putting you on a busted flush draw and thinks he can move you off the hand. Or he might have something bigger than you. But having played the hand this way, I call a push. Middle set is good enough for me. If a K or Q comes I'm not worrying. He raises both of these pre flop.

If the river comes a heart, I put in a similar bet and probably fold to the push unless I have a really good reason not to. But I don't see that he can discount the possibility of you being on a draw and I think he'd have to have a flush to push.

[George2Loose]

IMO he has AA or a flush draw.

[Longy]

I would have checked as well with the view to check raising all in, goddam him checking behind. I think he bets aa,jj and aj again here with the lead in the betting why wouldn't he especially as our hand looks like a flush draw. So i reckon he has a flush draw or a weak ace here or total air that has given up.

As for the river a non heart is simple to play by making a value bet of around 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot with a view to calling a shove, this looks good as well as it looks like a busted flush draw trying to pick it up after missing. A heart is more tricky and may well be best to check/call with the view to catching a bluff or two pair hand value betting, the other option may be to bet/fold to a push where we know Sam will only push over the top with a hand that beats us, while at the same time getting a call from ax,2pr hands etc.

[MANTIS01]

Some good quality replies about the hand this week.

I think that it would be a tricky situation if the flush card appeared on the river. Check-calling is what I would be inclined to do after John's check on the turn. But if the flush came...we checked...and John bet/all-in I would find that a tricky one? Considering I have played my hand like a flush draw what hand could John do this with that we could beat?

[AlexMartin]

I call preflop, with your slight discount from the SB and the fact that its 3-way making up for the fact that your implied odds arent huge. But they are still good enough.


What hand do you think he has here? What hand are you trying to represent?
IMHO i hate not leading here, you are inviting a scary heart card shutting down your action from an ace. This is one of those interesting scenarios where i like the simplicity of betting your hand, odds are one will have a heart. A nice chunky 2/3 pot bet could get AK or AQ to commit the ultimate mistake.


When you check and he bets 1/2 the pot its slightly unusual. I think we can rule out AX or AA on the turn when he checks behind but for me we should get here. He either has a pp lower than AA, probably a high pp like JJ-KK or a big heart draw which is most likely. When the pot gets to approach my remaining stack size i see no problem with shoving and taking whats there. Playing oop i would be very worried about giving a free card in this large pot. Oh, and im never ever ever worried about Aa here for those that were concerned.

[pswnio]

For those that check call the river if a heart hits - what's your calling limit? Can you call a shove? If you do and lose you're down to just over 3k. Checking is an open invitation for him to bluff at you. If you're prepared to call any bet, then that's fine. But if you're not, leading at the pot for 4k suggests that you might be pot committed and makes it more unlikely he's going to put all his chips in without a hand. It's a semi-blocker semi-value bet.

It seems odd to me that given these stack sizes and given the pre flop action he would lead for just under half the pot with a flush draw on the flop. I don't really put him on two hearts at the mo.

[action man]

 In line with how you have played it so far i imagine you lead and face a hefty reraise. I put him on a flush draw 40% of the time here, but i have a good feeling he has JJ, his flop bet was to see where he was and he hit his set on the turn and is prob going to stack you on a brick river. Think you have played the hand badly tbh.

[TightEnd]

I think this is the trouble that NOT leading on the flop gets you into, when he checks behind on the turn its potentially disastrous.

On a heart river I check call I think, I doubt he has two hearts and his turn check could indicate an attempt was made to take the pot by a steal on the flop as much as trying to get a free river for a heart

On a blank I value bet and call any re-raise. If he has AA (surely not) or JJ (more likely) then so be it

[action man]

really fancy JJ here. Only hand he can have that makes sense to me. Surely a bluff on the flop he would bet a bit more. or fire the turn again.

[pswnio]

I have him on JJ as a distinct possiblity as well, maybe even the most likely. But it's not the only hand he could have. AJ he might check behind. He might have taken stab on flop with any two. I'm same as Tighty, it's a definite value bet and call raise on a blank river, and if he has you beat, so be it. And the more I think about it, the more I figure he doesn't have any hearts.

I like the way the hand has been played. Risky but potentially more rewarding than trying to take the pot there and then. If you'd led out on the flop he might have called with JJ anyway and you'd still stack off to him if he has it.

[MANTIS01]

Yep, lots of interesting situations with a hand like this.

The big strategy question here is whether to lead or not on the flop. In this example it is safe to assume we would loose Sam and his Kings this way...but that was always the likely result with the A on board anyway. If John does have a hand like J-J they would probably follow the Kings into the muck. Obviously, there are associated risks with both plays. If you lead you take the risk that you may not get paid at all (don't forget we have a tight image right now) and if you check you take the risk of leading yourself into trouble later in the hand.

Quite often I find that we scare ourselves unnecessarily by what we see out on the board. In this example the flop brings 2 hearts. But this doesn't necessarily mean either of our two opponents have a draw to the flush. We see the danger and think about how we can safeguard ourselves against it. If you lead I don't imagine you get a flush draw to go away and so if the board brings another heart you will be faced with the same predicament whether you bet or check-call the flop.

The only way to avoid a tricky turn/river decision in this hand is to check-raise the flop I think. But as has been said this makes your hand rather transparent and again you probably wont get paid. I think it's ok to gamble that the flush WONT come and IF it does my opponent wont have made it...because that will be the case most of the time.

The thing I don't like about leading with the flush draw on board is that your opponent can call with A-x or 2 pair and then use that flush to his advantage should it come. Maybe, check-calling allows you to use the flush to your advantage should it come. Not sure really, it's a tricky one. Obviously, a far better and more likely scenario is no heart on the turn and this is where I was looking to check-raise all-in but John's check prevented me from making this play.

Certainly an interesting one though and I think this is a good example of how many ways a particular hand can be played out.

[MANTIS01]

A quick question about the best play on the river

Is there not a case, considering the way I have played the hand (like a flush draw), for checking the river should a brick come? If John IS on a flush draw himself then checking will give him an invitation to try and buy the pot with his busted draw. If we decide to bet out we will loose him and this will mean no extra $'s after playing it so risky. Are we only ever going to face either a re-raise from a better hand or a fold from a busted draw if we bet the river?