What did i do, what should i do?

[LuckyLloyd]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=29736.msg610391#msg610391 date=1197997431]
 There is no rational argument you can give me as to why re-raising to 1500 preflop is a TERRIBLY BAD idea with KK in this spot. It definitely does not allow your oppo's to play perfectly against you postflop unless they are good enough to make you fold winning hands. It aint terribly likely someone is gonna bluff for stacks early on here. Ok, so your range has been narrowed, but thats not the end of the world when we are getting 15% of our stack in pre.

Allowing AA to play perfectly against you should be secondary thought process no?.  People say this allows opponent to set mine you perfectly postflop- who gives a fuck, you gave them incorrect effective implied odds preflop. Im not giving 7.5/1 im gonna use a min of 10/1 as you have to hit a set AND get oppo's stack.

 As played Matt doesnt go broke, if he flats then he is gonna lose a whole heap more postflop. Defining your hand can be very wrong in some instances, but i dont think its terrible here. This is the 1st hand of the tournament.

I've given you two rational arguments. Also, as Flushy and I are trying to make clear - if we call the 500 and take a passive check / call line postflop we are unlikely to lose "a whole heap more" than a 1000 extra chips you wish to put in. And we may, of course win more chips from weaker hands than 1000. Something which can rarely happen when you make it 1500 pre.

[LuckyLloyd]

Oh, and btw - the fact that it is the first hand or the one thousand and first hand never changes the fact that we should strive for the "correct" play.

[Royal Flush]

Oh, and btw - the fact that it is the first hand or the one thousand and first hand never changes the fact that we should strive for the "correct" play.

I think what Alex means is that on the first hand we are going to get crazy bluffed here about 0.1% of the time, as such we will never be misinformed when we make it 1500 to go, as such any 'information' we get back is easy to work out. I am not advocating the line of 1500, i am just pointing out why the first hand makes this play a bit better than say the 30th.

[AlexMartin]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=29736.msg610391#msg610391 date=1197997431]
 There is no rational argument you can give me as to why re-raising to 1500 preflop is a TERRIBLY BAD idea with KK in this spot. It definitely does not allow your oppo's to play perfectly against you postflop unless they are good enough to make you fold winning hands. It aint terribly likely someone is gonna bluff for stacks early on here. Ok, so your range has been narrowed, but thats not the end of the world when we are getting 15% of our stack in pre.

Allowing AA to play perfectly against you should be secondary thought process no?.  People say this allows opponent to set mine you perfectly postflop- who gives a fuck, you gave them incorrect effective implied odds preflop. Im not giving 7.5/1 im gonna use a min of 10/1 as you have to hit a set AND get oppo's stack.

 As played Matt doesnt go broke, if he flats then he is gonna lose a whole heap more postflop. Defining your hand can be very wrong in some instances, but i dont think its terrible here. This is the 1st hand of the tournament.

I've given you two rational arguments. Also, as Flushy and I are trying to make clear - if we call the 500 and take a passive check / call line postflop we are unlikely to lose "a whole heap more" than a 1000 extra chips you wish to put in. And we may, of course win more chips from weaker hands than 1000. Something which can rarely happen when you make it 1500 pre.

I deffo agree that most of the time we should be making our lines a lot more clouded in order to get worse hands to call and better hands to fold etc. But this is the 1st hand of the tournament. We have zero info on how oppo's are playing today. This makes it hard for us to play our hand effectively oop down the streets.

Later on with some background info i prefer a less conventional line. But there is a great chance we can increase our stack by 10% 1st hand relatively risk free and then take our time to evaluate the table. Unless we have some built in Ungar-esque talent we can lose a lot with a  big PP oop against unknown quantities on wide open ranges. I love poker.

[MANTIS01]

Very good discussion.

The 1,500 re-raise is going to magnify our strength for sure....because it's the first hand of a big tournament. But we can also use that situation to magnify the original bet-raise-call (with original bettor behind) action and conclude that there is strength at the table. We could raise to be absolutely certain about that but it seems clear enough. So I am inclined to agree with the call line here...using the 1,500 pre-flop tells us something we already know whereas there could be better uses for that money later. I think this is pretty much the point Lloyd makes and it's a good one. Also at this stage in the comp I'm going to be much happier pumping chips in with better than one pair and calling gives you the chance to explore this. Later in the comp I'm probably pushing.

Having said that your post flop decisions are going to be so tough. By re-raising your pre-flop decision was more simple but a good one none the less. I think if you do decide to call it would be on the basis that you are not in love with the hand.