Constructive criticism required

[TightEnd]

I have just, I feel, misplayed a live hand badly

At some stage recently "running bad" has turned into "playing bad" and I feel the need to be suitably chastised

Its the Wednesday night £50 plus £50 at Luton

3 tables are left, top 5 are paid, average for the final is 24,000


I have 12,000 and blinds are 200-400. I'm on an aggressive table, having just been moved there but I know all bar one of the players well

An in form LAG (Nav) limps for 400 in MP with 25,000 or so

Complete unknown in SB completes, but chatter around the table is that he is "clueless" and has got a 20,000 plus stack just recently with a 30-70% coup going in his favour

I'm in the BB with    and where normally I would raise here I think I 'll get called by a LAGwith a wide range with position and then have to play the streets OOP, I elect to check and if hit, trap the LAG

Flop 

SB checks and I see known Lag look at his chips. Check raise time or weak lead? I lead for 800 into 1200 and sure enough LAG makes it 4000

SB flat calls immediately

Neither player can put me on TPTK here, LAG's range is wide and can include sets, 2 pairs, KQ, Qx, clubs or just second pair...I've seen him push people around with as little as that

He doesn't rate me, probably thinks I'll lay down most hands to a raise there

SB..no idea, but I'll take the risk he is behind me

I push in, with 10,000 in the middle up for grabs


Views please. Result irrelevant but please analyse my thinking

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Ditto.

[celtic]

Not even Flushy, Mantis & Luckylloyd could analyse a hand that involves Nav. Raise pre-flop IMO, at least lose one of them. Fold if Nav re-raises or SB re-raises pre. Check raise all in on the flop or push the turn. Simple game this poker.

[Rookie (Rodney)]

I dont mind the check pre, infact i know the situation that Tighty doesnt want to get himself into and have on numerous occasions played a hand like Tighty has got this way... As i said i dont think i do much - if anything - different here..

[GlasgowBandit]

I raise pre flop would be a bad move but as played out I dont think you have done too much wrong.  My only concern would be that the lag has either come in with some nonsense and hit two pair or he had suited connectors and has hit an open ender which goes on to take your chippies!

As played though I dont see a great deal wrong with it the push is good if you think your picking up whats in the middle.

[celtic]

Check AQ in the BB? Is this common with LAG limper and SB making up. hate this play here.

[Royal Flush]

I don't check pre, if i did i don't bet flop i go for a CR prob, or even check call.

[TightEnd]

Check AQ in the BB? Is this common with LAG limper and SB making up. hate this play here.

"normally I would raise here I think I 'll get called by a LAGwith a wide range with position and then have to play the streets OOP, I elect to check and if hit, trap the LAG"


Vinny, he's calling me if I raise, whatever I sensibly raise

I'm then OOP all hand with no better idea what he might be about

Usually Raise obv, but against this type of foe its awkward I find

[LuckyLloyd]

You should raise preflop. I don't mind checking AK - A10 or calling open raises as long as I am sure post flop will heads up. Three handed I think it is just much, much better to raise here. Yeah, we'll be out of position on this Nav fella - but we're losing value if we just check and opening up the possibility of the  exact scenario that happened, eh, happening. Plus, if these guys are playing any two cards this is a good spot to accumulate chips. In that if we raise to 1400 and lose one of them pre; a c - bet of 1800 on practically every flop with your image should have a decent success rate - enough to be profitable anyway. Also, you may be able to get it in pre if either of these guys are real looney tunes. And that would be sweet.

The flop really is quite player dependent. In a tournament situation where we are a fair whack from the money and only have 30BBs to start the hand against two players with wide ranges I don't have a problem getting it in on the flop with TPTK. This is also a really good board to do it on because there are two draws out there that either could reasonably have.

You know your player, so if you felt that this Nav fella is raising your bet 75% of the time+ then bet3betshove is fine. However, judging by your description of his physical reaction to the flop, he's betting anyway, so you can just check, shove. The real key is that It doesn't matter how the chips get in once you have decided to put them in. As such, in terms of your thought processes - I suggest that you need to know what you are doing when you lead for 800. The decision should be made at that point. Either you shove over a raise; or you fold to a raise depending on what you know of the player involved.

Irrespective of how well I knew my opponents in this hand I would always lead out on this board for 1000 with all of TPTK; TPGK; Two pair; Set; flushdraw; combo draw.

Once the sb flatcalls the spot is now legitamitely ugly. But meh, this Nav fella sounds like he can have one pair; a draw; air a lot. And if the sb really is that bad he can also have plenty that you beat. I think getting it in is ok. But if you're running bad at present you best get your coat I'm afraid.

[celtic]

the quote was related to Rookie's post where he said he didnt mind the check in the BB. I dont like it in ur position. 

[Rookie (Rodney)]

the quote was related to Rookie's post where he said he didnt mind the check in the BB. I dont like it in ur position. 

Yes but tighty explained the reason why he/or me for that matter dont mind the check... The LAG is capable of betting with air into a pot of 1200 when you have hit OR if you have raised pre, he would happily bluff into a pot of 3600 when you havent hit.

[byronkincaid]

the way i see it is you've decided to play small ball which is fine imo, but then I'm check calling flop and playing cautiously after that trying to keep the pot small as you have absolutely no idea what your opponents have. if you raise pre flop then you wanna be getting all in on this flop obv. it's about commitment, you're playing not to commit yourself pre then commiting post with TPTK, maybe that's correct against these opponents and you're not exactly deep I know but TPTK  = showdown value rather than All In value here cos of your decision pre. imo

[byronkincaid]

the way i see it is you've decided to play small ball which is fine imo, but then I'm check calling flop and playing cautiously after that trying to keep the pot small as you have absolutely no idea what your opponents have. if you raise pre flop then you wanna be getting all in on this flop obv. it's about commitment, you're playing not to commit yourself pre then commiting post with TPTK, maybe that's correct against these opponents and you're not exactly deep I know but TPTK  = showdown value rather than All In value here cos of your decision pre. imo

LOL



(in before luckyloyd)

[LuckyLloyd]

the way i see it is you've decided to play small ball which is fine imo, but then I'm check calling flop and playing cautiously after that trying to keep the pot small as you have absolutely no idea what your opponents have. if you raise pre flop then you wanna be getting all in on this flop obv. it's about commitment, you're playing not to commit yourself pre then commiting post with TPTK, maybe that's correct against these opponents and you're not exactly deep I know but TPTK  = showdown value rather than All In value here cos of your decision pre. imo

YOU HAVE 30BBs.

[byronkincaid]

the way i see it is you've decided to play small ball which is fine imo, but then I'm check calling flop and playing cautiously after that trying to keep the pot small as you have absolutely no idea what your opponents have. if you raise pre flop then you wanna be getting all in on this flop obv. it's about commitment, you're playing not to commit yourself pre then commiting post with TPTK, maybe that's correct against these opponents and you're not exactly deep I know but TPTK  = showdown value rather than All In value here cos of your decision pre. imo

YOU HAVE 30BBs.

then raise pre hit TPTK get AI. simple innit