Vagueness and the Aftermath - A sporadic diary

[typhoon13]

I knew i wouldnt win lol.

[Rod Paradise]

I saw the most amazing programme on the domestication of dogs last night. I'm reasonably familiar with the popular theories on the process, but check this out.

For an animal to become domesticated a mutation has to take place within it's brain, and this mutation must be passed on to it's offspring. (So that subsequent generations are born domesticated)

Now, here comes the amazing part....

The domestication mutation triggers an avalanche of other spontaneous mutations, meaning that creatures like the fox or the wolf, that have bred true to type for millennia, suddenly start to appear with different or unusual features.

Example. After being domesticated, (Incredibly only a 10 year process) foxes started giving birth to young with floppy ears, black & white coats, shorter muzzles etc etc.

What a truly astounding phenomenon. I'm gobsmacked.

I found the fox breeding experiment a bit distressing. The ones which had been bred from the nicer line were getting lots of love and affection because they were nice and cuddly.

The more aggressive ones were just being poked with sticks. They weren't offered any love and there was no attempt to try to make them more amiable to humans. It was as if they were deliberately making them as nasty as possible to further prove their theories.

Other than this it was a brilliant program.

Part two is on Wednesday Matt.

Isn't this that programme I was trying to get you to watch a few weeks back? It was just one hour though... What channel Red because the BBC2 prog was great.

Evilpie - I think the point from the fox experiment was that the foxes which accepted contact were bred together and wanted more  - the foxes that didn't accept it when bred together gave foxes that you couldn't show affection to cause they'd have the hand off you.

[Blatch]

Actually, It's on at 1am, and I've just realised that that's tonight. (If you know what I mean)

Amazingly, Tom, in TV-Land, 1am Wednesday, or 0100 Wednesday, is "2500 Tuesday".

The TV-World ends at 2700. That's 3am the next day to you & me. And every day has 27 hours. Truly.

If only the real world were like that, I wonder what we'd do with the extra 3 hours?

My money would be on sleeping or playing poker

[RED-DOG]

I saw the most amazing programme on the domestication of dogs last night. I'm reasonably familiar with the popular theories on the process, but check this out.

For an animal to become domesticated a mutation has to take place within it's brain, and this mutation must be passed on to it's offspring. (So that subsequent generations are born domesticated)

Now, here comes the amazing part....

The domestication mutation triggers an avalanche of other spontaneous mutations, meaning that creatures like the fox or the wolf, that have bred true to type for millennia, suddenly start to appear with different or unusual features.

Example. After being domesticated, (Incredibly only a 10 year process) foxes started giving birth to young with floppy ears, black & white coats, shorter muzzles etc etc.

What a truly astounding phenomenon. I'm gobsmacked.

I found the fox breeding experiment a bit distressing. The ones which had been bred from the nicer line were getting lots of love and affection because they were nice and cuddly.

The more aggressive ones were just being poked with sticks. They weren't offered any love and there was no attempt to try to make them more amiable to humans. It was as if they were deliberately making them as nasty as possible to further prove their theories.

Other than this it was a brilliant program.

Part two is on Wednesday Matt.

Isn't this that programme I was trying to get you to watch a few weeks back? It was just one hour though... What channel Red because the BBC2 prog was great.

Evilpie - I think the point from the fox experiment was that the foxes which accepted contact were bred together and wanted more  - the foxes that didn't accept it when bred together gave foxes that you couldn't show affection to cause they'd have the hand off you.

This was called "Dogs that changed the world" Rod, on the Eden channel (Sky) at midnight tonight & 1am on Eden +

[RED-DOG]

Actually, It's on at 1am, and I've just realised that that's tonight. (If you know what I mean)

Amazingly, Tom, in TV-Land, 1am Wednesday, or 0100 Wednesday, is "2500 Tuesday".

The TV-World ends at 2700. That's 3am the next day to you & me. And every day has 27 hours. Truly.

If only the real world were like that, I wonder what we'd do with the extra 3 hours?

When the grim reaper calls, I'm going to show him this post and tell him I've been saving all my extra three hours up so that I could use them in a lump.

Imaging if you could do that. I wonder how well people would use the extra time?

[Rod Paradise]

I saw the most amazing programme on the domestication of dogs last night. I'm reasonably familiar with the popular theories on the process, but check this out.

For an animal to become domesticated a mutation has to take place within it's brain, and this mutation must be passed on to it's offspring. (So that subsequent generations are born domesticated)

Now, here comes the amazing part....

The domestication mutation triggers an avalanche of other spontaneous mutations, meaning that creatures like the fox or the wolf, that have bred true to type for millennia, suddenly start to appear with different or unusual features.

Example. After being domesticated, (Incredibly only a 10 year process) foxes started giving birth to young with floppy ears, black & white coats, shorter muzzles etc etc.

What a truly astounding phenomenon. I'm gobsmacked.

I found the fox breeding experiment a bit distressing. The ones which had been bred from the nicer line were getting lots of love and affection because they were nice and cuddly.

The more aggressive ones were just being poked with sticks. They weren't offered any love and there was no attempt to try to make them more amiable to humans. It was as if they were deliberately making them as nasty as possible to further prove their theories.

Other than this it was a brilliant program.

Part two is on Wednesday Matt.

Isn't this that programme I was trying to get you to watch a few weeks back? It was just one hour though... What channel Red because the BBC2 prog was great.

Evilpie - I think the point from the fox experiment was that the foxes which accepted contact were bred together and wanted more  - the foxes that didn't accept it when bred together gave foxes that you couldn't show affection to cause they'd have the hand off you.

This was called "Dogs that changed the world" Rod, on the Eden channel (Sky) at midnight tonight & 1am on Eden +

Cheers Red - might see if they've past episodes online.

[Bongo]

Actually, It's on at 1am, and I've just realised that that's tonight. (If you know what I mean)

Amazingly, Tom, in TV-Land, 1am Wednesday, or 0100 Wednesday, is "2500 Tuesday".

The TV-World ends at 2700. That's 3am the next day to you & me. And every day has 27 hours. Truly.

If only the real world were like that, I wonder what we'd do with the extra 3 hours?

You can have an extra 4 hours if you like.

http://www.dbeat.com/28/

[Rod Paradise]

I saw the most amazing programme on the domestication of dogs last night. I'm reasonably familiar with the popular theories on the process, but check this out.

For an animal to become domesticated a mutation has to take place within it's brain, and this mutation must be passed on to it's offspring. (So that subsequent generations are born domesticated)

Now, here comes the amazing part....

The domestication mutation triggers an avalanche of other spontaneous mutations, meaning that creatures like the fox or the wolf, that have bred true to type for millennia, suddenly start to appear with different or unusual features.

Example. After being domesticated, (Incredibly only a 10 year process) foxes started giving birth to young with floppy ears, black & white coats, shorter muzzles etc etc.

What a truly astounding phenomenon. I'm gobsmacked.

I found the fox breeding experiment a bit distressing. The ones which had been bred from the nicer line were getting lots of love and affection because they were nice and cuddly.

The more aggressive ones were just being poked with sticks. They weren't offered any love and there was no attempt to try to make them more amiable to humans. It was as if they were deliberately making them as nasty as possible to further prove their theories.

Other than this it was a brilliant program.

Part two is on Wednesday Matt.

Isn't this that programme I was trying to get you to watch a few weeks back? It was just one hour though... What channel Red because the BBC2 prog was great.

Evilpie - I think the point from the fox experiment was that the foxes which accepted contact were bred together and wanted more  - the foxes that didn't accept it when bred together gave foxes that you couldn't show affection to cause they'd have the hand off you.

This was called "Dogs that changed the world" Rod, on the Eden channel (Sky) at midnight tonight & 1am on Eden +

Cheers Red - might see if they've past episodes online.

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

[RED-DOG]

I saw the most amazing programme on the domestication of dogs last night. I'm reasonably familiar with the popular theories on the process, but check this out.

For an animal to become domesticated a mutation has to take place within it's brain, and this mutation must be passed on to it's offspring. (So that subsequent generations are born domesticated)

Now, here comes the amazing part....

The domestication mutation triggers an avalanche of other spontaneous mutations, meaning that creatures like the fox or the wolf, that have bred true to type for millennia, suddenly start to appear with different or unusual features.

Example. After being domesticated, (Incredibly only a 10 year process) foxes started giving birth to young with floppy ears, black & white coats, shorter muzzles etc etc.

What a truly astounding phenomenon. I'm gobsmacked.

I found the fox breeding experiment a bit distressing. The ones which had been bred from the nicer line were getting lots of love and affection because they were nice and cuddly.

The more aggressive ones were just being poked with sticks. They weren't offered any love and there was no attempt to try to make them more amiable to humans. It was as if they were deliberately making them as nasty as possible to further prove their theories.

Other than this it was a brilliant program.

Part two is on Wednesday Matt.

Isn't this that programme I was trying to get you to watch a few weeks back? It was just one hour though... What channel Red because the BBC2 prog was great.

Evilpie - I think the point from the fox experiment was that the foxes which accepted contact were bred together and wanted more  - the foxes that didn't accept it when bred together gave foxes that you couldn't show affection to cause they'd have the hand off you.

This was called "Dogs that changed the world" Rod, on the Eden channel (Sky) at midnight tonight & 1am on Eden +

Cheers Red - might see if they've past episodes online.

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

As that bint on Tony's thread said...

Don't get me started

[kinboshi]

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

Do they do any good?

[RED-DOG]

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

Do they do any good?

Using aesthetics as a breed standard rather than physical and mental suitability for purpose  can never be good.

[kinboshi]

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

Do they do any good?

Using aesthetics as a breed standard rather than physical and mental suitability for purpose giving the slightest consideration to the health of the animals can never be good.

FYP

[RED-DOG]

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

Do they do any good?

Using aesthetics as a breed standard rather than physical and mental suitability for purpose giving the slightest consideration to the health of the animals can never be good.

FYP

If you consider physical and mental suitability for purpose, the health of the animal is a given.

[kinboshi]

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

Do they do any good?

Using aesthetics as a breed standard rather than physical and mental suitability for purpose giving the slightest consideration to the health of the animals can never be good.

FYP

If you consider physical and mental suitability for purpose, the health of the animal is a given.

Possibly.  But you could breed a dog for a particular purpose and still not care about it's long-term health - and maybe even treat it as a disposable tool that's discarded in favour of a replacement animal once it's served its purpose.  Breeding a dog as a disposable commodity for a useful purpose but not considering the suffering it will endure is probably just as bad as breeding it to look good.  Of course, a dog that's fit for purpose is more likely going to be a healthier animal as well.

[RED-DOG]

Watching it now - shocked at how normal the old picture of the pekingese looked - look at them now & they are just freaks. The Kennel club & other such organisations do more harm than good IMHO.

Do they do any good?

Using aesthetics as a breed standard rather than physical and mental suitability for purpose giving the slightest consideration to the health of the animals can never be good.

FYP

If you consider physical and mental suitability for purpose, the health of the animal is a given.

Possibly.  But you could breed a dog for a particular purpose and still not care about it's long-term health - and maybe even treat it as a disposable tool that's discarded in favour of a replacement animal once it's served its purpose.  Breeding a dog as a disposable commodity for a useful purpose but not considering the suffering it will endure is probably just as bad as breeding it to look good.  Of course, a dog that's fit for purpose is more likely going to be a healthier animal as well.

That's argument for the sake of it Kin.

Pedigree dogs now fall into two distinct groups. Show strain and working strain.

Show strain dogs are completely different from working strain dogs of the same breed.

Working strain dogs are bred to do a job, and they will do it better for longer if they are happy and healthy. no one cares what they look like.

Show strain dogs are bred to conform to set of standards laid down by a committee. Health and happiness, are of secondary consideration.

Bear / bull bating are now illegal in this country, and look what has happened to the poor bulldog as a consequence.

For bull bating, a big head, a short muzzle, and short powerful legs were an advantage. In show dogs, these attributes have been magnified to a point where they are detrimental. The result is an abomination which has difficulty breathing, difficulty walking, and is unable to whelp without the aid if forceps.

Do you think they would have been in such a sorry state if they were still being bred for work?

I know that you could say that the original dogs suffered greatly, but I'm arguing a principle here. Namely, dogs bred to do a job are by definition less likely to suffer unnecessary physical and mental defects than are dogs bred purely for looks.