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Author Topic: Complex Hand Problem - Pre Flop - Small Blind  (Read 17064 times)
snoopy1239
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« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2005, 07:13:03 PM »

With the blinds at 1000/2000 with 300 antes and the early limper and mid position caller/limper you called in the cut off with which casued the button to also call.

Everyone has approx 120k/150k except seat 7 who has 200k and the button who has 50k left.

There is now 14000 in the pot and it is 1000 to you and you are in the small blind with and you have 130k stack size.

What do you do?

Without reading the responses you've received so far, my play would be to flatcall.

I don't think you can pass any hand with those pot odds. Plus, your stack isn't short enough to worry about chucking in another 1k.

I don't think raising is a good idea. An early limper is not only dangerous because he could be trapping with a monster, but he could also hold a decent hand which would be worthy of at least a call even against a sizable raise. He'd then have position on you and potentially outplay you.

Also, the fella in seat 7 has a 200k stack so would be able to flatcall and bully you off the hand post-flop.

You may recieve two calls from these players, and then you be stuck in a weak postion with 84 suited. Not ideal in my opinion, especially considering your stack.

Let's not forget that the button could put you on the steal and push all-in. He may just want to gamble, but even then he's probably got you beat.

Finally, the big blind is yet to act. He may identify your move, he may hold a raising hand, he may also have a strong calling hand with better subsequent position.

You could make a monster of a raise, but would it be worth it? I don't think so.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 07:21:07 PM by snoopy1239 » Logged
bundle
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2005, 07:15:58 PM »

Raise to 50k

Now i did think about this move but it's far too dangerous here, if the button has any kind of hand hes going to call and if the big stack moves all-in behind him your going to have to release 50k worse off. I'm not getting all my chips in with 8 4  soooooootted or not
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dan
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2005, 07:21:35 PM »


I don't think raising is a good idea. An early limper is not only dangerous because he could be trapping with a monster, but he could also hold a decent hand which would be worthy of at least a call even against a sizable raise. He'd then have position on you and potentially outplay you.


i think this is spot on. if the early limper isnt holding a monster he will certianly be holding a fairly strong hand to play from this postion and i dont think putting 20k into a 14k pot is likely to stop him from at least calling.

i would flat call hit at 884 flop and win the hand  Cheesy
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snoopy1239
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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2005, 07:23:44 PM »


I don't think raising is a good idea. An early limper is not only dangerous because he could be trapping with a monster, but he could also hold a decent hand which would be worthy of at least a call even against a sizable raise. He'd then have position on you and potentially outplay you.


i think this is spot on.

This has been archived in the snoopy log and shall be quoted next time dan, ifm or any other of my railbirds  Roll Eyes mock my seemingly stupid, but secretly genius, moves.  Cheesy
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dan
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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2005, 07:26:39 PM »


I don't think raising is a good idea. An early limper is not only dangerous because he could be trapping with a monster, but he could also hold a decent hand which would be worthy of at least a call even against a sizable raise. He'd then have position on you and potentially outplay you.


i think this is spot on.

This has been archived in the snoopy log and shall be quoted next time dan, ifm or any other of my railbirds  Roll Eyes mock my seemingly stupid, but secretly genius, moves.  Cheesy

i did think about that when i was typing but for once snoop i agree with you. the worring thing is im actually thinking like you .

look out for my outragous moves in my next tourney
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2005, 07:27:49 PM »

Raise to 50k

Now i did think about this move but it's far too dangerous here, if the button has any kind of hand hes going to call and if the big stack moves all-in behind him your going to have to release 50k worse off. I'm not getting all my chips in with 8 4  soooooootted or not

I don't personally understand the pre occupation with the button coming after you. I think he is the least likely to come back over the top and the dangers have to be the first and possibly the second limpers (as well as the Big Blind) in this pot rather than seat 7 or the Button. The Button has enough chips to pass his hand and still have 50k left so i can't think why he would want to look up the small blind with any likely hand he s holding even if he suspects a steal from you. There was 12k in the pot when he called and if he had a rasing hand he would have done so then and is imo extremely unlikely to do it after the sb or anyone else for that matter given the opportunity puts in a raise.
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bundle
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2005, 07:40:14 PM »

Like i said i'm not the best player by far

 so if it's not the button then it could well be limper 1 or 2 that might be the big danger, a raise here is opening me up to all kinds of trouble, I will see the flop for 1k more, but i'm not putting my stack on the line with 8 4

please keep in mind ive only been playing poker for 10 months, so this is great stuff to me
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2005, 08:18:33 PM »

Like i said i'm not the best player by far

 so if it's not the button then it could well be limper 1 or 2 that might be the big danger, a raise here is opening me up to all kinds of trouble, I will see the flop for 1k more, but i'm not putting my stack on the line with 8 4

please keep in mind ive only been playing poker for 10 months, so this is great stuff to me

Sincerest apologies as I did not mean to come across in such a dictatorial and cendescending manner. It's just I like to be opinionated when it comes to poker as I find it helps makes decisions simpler as the game is complex enough as it is.

In any event it's good to be decisive and have the courage of your convictions because this game is all about backing your judgement and the fact that you are worng from time to time is neither here nor there.
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bundle
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2005, 08:27:47 PM »

Quote
Sincerest apologies

No need, i didnt take it the wrong way. I can see your a true gentlemen
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ifm
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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2005, 09:35:16 PM »

ok, i call here, i cannot raise because it looks like i'm stealing from the button so some decent players will go allin with moderate holdings because of this.
the dangers are still the early limpers but i need to hit 2 pair or a pair with the flush draw.
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The Baron
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« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2005, 02:48:32 AM »

Raise to 50k

Now i did think about this move but it's far too dangerous here, if the button has any kind of hand hes going to call and if the big stack moves all-in behind him your going to have to release 50k worse off. I'm not getting all my chips in with 8 4  soooooootted or not

I don't personally understand the pre occupation with the button coming after you. I think he is the least likely to come back over the top and the dangers have to be the first and possibly the second limpers (as well as the Big Blind) in this pot rather than seat 7 or the Button. The Button has enough chips to pass his hand and still have 50k left so i can't think why he would want to look up the small blind with any likely hand he s holding even if he suspects a steal from you. There was 12k in the pot when he called and if he had a rasing hand he would have done so then and is imo extremely unlikely to do it after the sb or anyone else for that matter given the opportunity puts in a raise.

Agreed. Except for UTG + 1 and the yet to act BB, I think all the other hand strengths have been given away.
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JP
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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2005, 04:05:08 AM »

Call.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2005, 08:48:13 AM »

Raise to 50k

Now i did think about this move but it's far too dangerous here, if the button has any kind of hand hes going to call and if the big stack moves all-in behind him your going to have to release 50k worse off. I'm not getting all my chips in with 8 4  soooooootted or not

I don't personally understand the pre occupation with the button coming after you. I think he is the least likely to come back over the top and the dangers have to be the first and possibly the second limpers (as well as the Big Blind) in this pot rather than seat 7 or the Button. The Button has enough chips to pass his hand and still have 50k left so i can't think why he would want to look up the small blind with any likely hand he s holding even if he suspects a steal from you. There was 12k in the pot when he called and if he had a rasing hand he would have done so then and is imo extremely unlikely to do it after the sb or anyone else for that matter given the opportunity puts in a raise.

Agreed. Except for UTG + 1 and the yet to act BB, I think all the other hand strengths have been given away.

all this is what I said, way back in the thread.    to me


I raise, get called by the UTG+1 and the cut off...and we go to the flop three handed

Harry....what's next!
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Harry Demetriou
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« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2005, 09:46:02 AM »

OK I think I'll move on to the next step in the thread:

Hand Analysis - The Flop - Small Blind

In reality you call from the small blind with your and the big blind checks whcih means that you are now 6 handed and there is 15k in the pot.

But first a few further comments on the small blind options pre flop.

In this kind of situation I tend to call regardless of what I am holding in the small blind but I still look in the hope that I am going to find a genuine raising hand. You may ask why it needs to be genuine and I would say that it is because I have the disadvantage of position if anyone should subsequently call me.

It is likely that the Big Blind is going to check once you've put the 1000 in and so as you are getting 14/1 and huge implied odds from the others it's worth taking the risk that you hit a miracle flop but BEWARE you really do need to hit perfect.

Personally I can't see the merit in raising here although you may well have a good stealing opportunity pure and simply because you have to respect the first and second players in the pot and there is still the Big Blind who may have a big hand but maybe the main advantage to raising here could be that you lose less in the long run. What can you possibly hope to flop with this kind of hand?Huh?? Really tough straight possibilities and the suited element is only worth a little because you have a few opponents. In essence you are playing an 8 high with a very weak kicker and you should remember that this is the reality of what you are holding.

If you flop bottom two pair anyone holding an overpair to the board or top pair can countefeit you and make a bigger two pair.

In this particular instance if you flop  two eights for trips and a rival holds an 8 (not very likely I know but still possible) then you are going to be outkicked and probably go broke. With two fours on the flop you may well have a better kicker than a rival as they most likely (if holding a 4 also) would have a 45 or 46 suited or otherwise but they could also be holding an A4 suited as these are limping/calling for minimum bet type of hands.

If you flop a flush or flush draw it is not impossible with 4/5 opponents for someone else to make a bigger flush.

However unlikely these scenarios may seem they do happen from time to time but the key point here is that when they do happen despite them being unlikley it is going to be very difficult for you to get away from your hand and you are going to go broke or at the very least lose a lot of chips. (NB I haven't even touched upon the more numerous times when you will partially hit or the bulk of times when you miss completely).

NEVER forget reverse implied odds.

SO the raise is very likely out and the call is dangerous but what about folding?

I have already said I am calling here but know of one top class and super aggressive player who folds in this spot. He takes the view explained above that no matter what he flops he is going to be in a very tricky spot and he is basically taking precautionary measures by folding to prevent himslef from being placed in such difficult situations. After all they say that good poker is about making good decisions and as few mistakes as possible and by preventing yourself from having to make tough decisions you are lessening the cahnce of making a mistake.

I cannot fault his thinking but maybe there is also a hidden lesson here about super aggressiveness in that it is better to be this type of player in pots where there are fewer opponents than you find yourslef against here in the same way that it is easier to bluff into small pots or against 1/2 opponents than it is into big pots or against many opponents.

Plenty of food for though but on to the next step we must go but I hope you are all enjoying this

BTW AS Tikay goaded me into this where are his thoughts on how to play these hands? and where is Brian Wilson who is an expert on playing this type of hand?

Hand Analysis - The Flop - Small Blind
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matt674
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« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2005, 09:55:20 AM »


I have already said I am calling here but know of one top class and super aggressive player who folds in this spot. He takes the view explained above that no matter what he flops he is going to be in a very tricky spot and he is basically taking precautionary measures by folding to prevent himslef from being placed in such difficult situations. After all they say that good poker is about making good decisions and as few mistakes as possible and by preventing yourself from having to make tough decisions you are lessening the cahnce of making a mistake.

I cannot fault his thinking but maybe there is also a hidden lesson here about super aggressiveness in that it is better to be this type of player in pots where there are fewer opponents than you find yourslef against here in the same way that it is easier to bluff into small pots or against 1/2 opponents than it is into big pots or against many opponents.


ty Cheesy ty Cheesy

Oh wait, you weren't talking about me there.......

darn, back to the drawing board - at least i think like a top class player, thats a start.....
« Last Edit: November 03, 2005, 09:57:11 AM by matt674 » Logged

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