Paired board versus big stack slag

[WYSINWYG]

The dynamic created by all 3 stack sizes make it an ugly situation for you. Taking your chances that AJ is ahead (and that means inducing a reraise from a ginormous stacked slag) is very likely better than all the other spots you're likely to find yourself in, most likely precipitated by a medium stack who can put you to the test, fail, and still stay alive.

I generally baulk at the all in shove pre here, I'm trying to figure out why

My shove gets called by a much better hand from ANOther or a better hand from BigStack (vs upside, which is 10 percent increase in stacksize, 30K chips :/ :/ )
My standard 3x reraise can scare squeezed-ANOther and elicit a bullying shove by BigStack with many worse hands.

A guy with 2M chips isnt just going to call a 12x bb shove for 10% of his stack with AQ+

You reckon? He looks at a pair or AQ+ and the weakness often revealed by your shove and just calls. I know the best move may not be to call since he loses much of his bullying power, but really how often do you see BigStack just shrug and call?

[LeKnave]

A guy with 2M chips isnt just going to call a 12x bb shove for 10% of his stack with AQ+

You reckon? He looks at a pair or AQ+ and the weakness often revealed by your shove and just calls. I know the best move may not be to call since he loses much of his bullying power, but really how often do you see BigStack just shrug and call?

I meant he will be calling much wider than that.  if i was the 2M stack im probs calling with like K8+  A2+ and any pair.

[WYSINWYG]

A guy with 2M chips isnt just going to call a 12x bb shove for 10% of his stack with AQ+

You reckon? He looks at a pair or AQ+ and the weakness often revealed by your shove and just calls. I know the best move may not be to call since he loses much of his bullying power, but really how often do you see BigStack just shrug and call?

I meant he will be calling much wider than that.  if i was the 2M stack im probs calling with like K8+  A2+ and any pair.

ah ok.

You flat call, and your opponent reacts as per video. After the turn your opponent bets 200K.

[Royal Flush]

 
I'm not raising to 60k pre anyway, I'm pushing.  Honestly this is something that I've never understood, maybe someone can help me out.  I agree with what has been said about post flop, money needs to go in, but from my perspective I can find far better spots to get my money in pre than with AJ.  I'm not referring to shoving because that's different.  But to raise someone with AJ preflop in the hope that I get reraised just doesn't make sense to me.  I mean yes against a lag hopefully I'll end up against someone gambling with a small pair or KQ, but even then I'm only 60/40 at best.  

Errr you have to be kidding.

Right so you shove AJ you get called by a range of hands, you should be +EV against this range, you raise and look like you can fold you get set in by a lot wider range of hands, AJ crushes loads of these hands, against the rest its 60%+

You actually think you can find a better spot than that? If you do you have a massive flaw in your end game.

[MC]

I'm shoving this spot. What can he have here that beats you that he doesn't shove with himself preflop?

Something like 78, 79 suited and possibly A8 but not much else if you ask me...

[Royal Flush]

A guy with 2M chips isnt just going to call a 12x bb shove for 10% of his stack with AQ+

You reckon? He looks at a pair or AQ+ and the weakness often revealed by your shove and just calls. I know the best move may not be to call since he loses much of his bullying power, but really how often do you see BigStack just shrug and call?

I meant he will be calling much wider than that.  if i was the 2M stack im probs calling with like K8+  A2+ and any pair.

ah ok.

You flat call, and your opponent reacts as per video. After the turn your opponent bets 200K.

Snap call, unless you are Phil Ivey then you fold for some unknown reason

[WYSINWYG]

When weighing up the maths of a shove I suppose you have to factor in the chances of being pushed off in later streets by a worse hand from the bigger stack.

[Royal Flush]

When weighing up the maths of a shove I suppose you have to factor in the chances of being pushed off in later streets by a worse hand from the bigger stack.

It's very unlikely you will be flat called...

[MANTIS01]

If you shove A-J pre-flop you actively lessen the chances your oppos will make a mistake. If you standard raise pre-flop you actively encourage your oppos to make a mistake. Considering both your oppos have you massively out-chipped the chances that they will fall into the trap of making mistakes against you is very high, mainly because their decisions are seemingly less important vs you than vs each other. In addition they know the pressure they can put on you is great, but if you shove you take that weapon away from their arsenal and leave them with less scope to blunder.

Risking getting knocked out is quite unimportant to you right now because unless you get your oppos to make mistakes or you get very lucky with the cards you are dealt 3-handed you will be knocked out anyway. So any opportunity you get to encourage mistakes must be taken.

[totalise]

mistakes aren't linear... sure you might reduce the frequency with which they make mistakes, but by shoving it in, you increase the magnitude of their mistakes the times they make one, and as you allude to, the fact that you are the short stack means they are more likely to make a loose call to try and get rid of you.

Put another way, the range of hands they will call 40/50k with preflop isn't going to be a million miles away from the range they will call a push with, and if they do fold hands like K10os, thats not really a disaster given that you pick up over 10% of your stack without showdown.

I dont really agree with flushy that we can raise here to induce worse hands to come over the top that might fold if we pushed, the SB will be fearful of the BB, and the BB cant figure to have too much FE, so id guess that most hands he comes over the top with (ie worse aces/QK etc) are likely to call if we push anyways.

[MANTIS01]

That is a good alternative view by totalise. It may be true. But I don't agree with it myself. No matter what seems true on paper the mentality of people who are actively involved in a game will often baulk the theory. Things are going well for the 2 big stacks and they will like being on the offensive. They will not like calling your all-in anywhere near as much as raising you all-in.

So if the sb picks up say A-9 he will not enjoy calling an all-in, especially so because he is indeed wary of the bb. His wariness of what the bb will do is lessened if he is given the opportunity to raise and not get himself caught in a squeeze. Raising shows the bb he has genuine strength and he is going to be much more comfortable putting 200k+ in that way. Whether the potential of a squeeze is all that real is beside the point. With the game in full flow poker players are still going to act like poker players and do what comes naturally to them. And poker players don't like calling all-in without genuine strength and with active players behind.

With this hand you really want to be playing a pot. And so you want to be encouraging action. All-in discourages action. It might not be a disaster letting K-10 of the hook but I still want and absolutely need chips in against this sort of hand some time soon. If you don't try and get that match up now then in a couple of hands time you are back to square one looking for that match up and hoping for a hand to do that with. I think denying the big stacks the opportunity to release the aggression they see as their best weapon is still a mistake. I think any hand that calls an all-in certainly pushes all-in against you so you don't reduce the magnitutde of the mistakes at all. And actually if the sb does call your standard raise and the bb squeezes you have actually increased the magnitude of the mistakes with the dead money your raise has cultivated.

[MANTIS01]

One more point on this. Totalise says the bb can't figure to have too much FE, and this is a truth. It is especially a truth in the rational environment of the forum. But in the heat of the game the bb could see things differently. He could figure he has more FE than he actually does. This of course would be a mistake. A mistake he can't make if we push. And limiting the various types of mistakes our oppos could make doesn't give us the best chance of improving our situation.

[bobAlike]

Shove Pre!
If you get a call then you can double or even treble up and put yourself back in the game. With only raising 60K and inviting callers AJ is only good to you on flop if you hit.

By not shoving pre your giving up your positional advantage. As the villain has chip and positional advantage post flop the chances are that he is going to bet out no matter what the flop. Thus leaving you scratching your head and posting on this forum.

Even if you bet out first/raise/shove on this flop the likelyhood is that villain will call as the chance of you having 8 is low IMO. With such a difference in stack sizes you're giving your oppos way too many chances than they need.

[Royal Flush]

Shove Pre!
If you get a call then you can double or even treble up and put yourself back in the game. With only raising 60K and inviting callers AJ is only good to you on flop if you hit.

By not shoving pre your giving up your positional advantage. As the villain has chip and positional advantage post flop the chances are that he is going to bet out no matter what the flop. Thus leaving you scratching your head and posting on this forum.

Even if you bet out first/raise/shove on this flop the likelyhood is that villain will call as the chance of you having 8 is low IMO. With such a difference in stack sizes you're giving your oppos way too many chances than they need.

Please read the whole thread before replying!

[bobAlike]

Shove Pre!
If you get a call then you can double or even treble up and put yourself back in the game. With only raising 60K and inviting callers AJ is only good to you on flop if you hit.

By not shoving pre your giving up your positional advantage. As the villain has chip and positional advantage post flop the chances are that he is going to bet out no matter what the flop. Thus leaving you scratching your head and posting on this forum.

Even if you bet out first/raise/shove on this flop the likelyhood is that villain will call as the chance of you having 8 is low IMO. With such a difference in stack sizes you're giving your oppos way too many chances than they need.

Please read the whole thread before replying!

Have reread whole thread again and if I've missed something can you be a bit more constructive in your criticism.
I was just putting my opinion forward, thought that's what this thread was for or is that a mistake also?