analyse this!

[Simon Galloway]

Let me explain again how often I make that call.

No hang on, there's no point.  Writing it 5 times doesn't work, what's the point in 6.

If I turn my hand face up all night in a tourny where av chips is 10-15BB are you ever going to do anything about it? Or not?  Its a bit shallow.

[Simon Galloway]

I've been following this hand with interest, coz I read it and thought the answer was simple.

But I kept quiet coz I expected the thinking to go many levels above mine.  And I was right.

But now the deep stuff seems to have settled, can I ask a question.

Are there times when good players take the thinking too far ?
Yes.  Simple is often best.  But if all you have is simple, your ceiling is limited.

I'm thinking NLHE for beginners.  By anybody.  Chapter 1 page 1
If that is where your opponent is, then simply think 1 level higher.  Thinking 6 levels higher is pointless - your thinking leads you to an answer that is based on assuming oppo is thinking on level 5.  If they are on level 1, none of the assumptions you are making are valid.

Don't go busto on a draw.  ( Not talking about pushing with a draw as a semi bluff. )
I don't like going broke with a draw.  But there are times when all my chips are at risk with a draw.  If you always raise with a made hand and always check-call with a draw, you are playing in a very exploitable way. 

If the bet was pot commiting to a push back over the top, isn't it by definition a bad bet ?
It is if you don't want to be pot committed!  Players that argue its a semi-bluff don't seem to grasp that it isn't a very good spot to bluff in - you got raised after all!  Then happy days, you hit your draw as your backup element.  But the point is, when electing to semi-bluff you think by definition you can get them to fold, with a draw as backup.  When they don't fold, it questions your read about deciding there was fold equity in the situation. There wasn't.

Not trying to be disrespectful to players sooooo much better than me. 
I don't see anything disrespectful.  People can agree and disagree all day in a disrespectful manner on poker - there isn't an optimal play in 100% of situations.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: action man

preflop play is so so bad by both imo, claire completely telegraphing her hand, and simon making a terrible call pre with JT, i dont care who you are playing against/reads w/e its never a call this shallow.

No I don't agree with this. The pre-flop play by both parties is not so so bad. Claire raises 400 when 300 is fine, that ain't so bad. The call with 10-J is ok as well because this is a shallow stacks re-buy tournament....everyone is shallow. Grinding away like this is some major event will really limit your chances to win imo. You've got to gamble a bit if you want to get into this type of tournament. The play is not philosophically excellent, but then again the structure, and the ordinary opposition, aren't conducive to world class poker tactics I would say.

[action man]

Posted by: action man

preflop play is so so bad by both imo, claire completely telegraphing her hand, and simon making a terrible call pre with JT, i dont care who you are playing against/reads w/e its never a call this shallow.

No I don't agree with this. The pre-flop play by both parties is not so so bad. Claire raises 400 when 300 is fine, that ain't so bad. The call with 10-J is ok as well because this is a shallow stacks re-buy tournament....everyone is shallow. Grinding away like this is some major event will really limit your chances to win imo. You've got to gamble a bit if you want to get into this type of tournament. The play is not philosophically excellent, but then again the structure, and the ordinary opposition, aren't conducive to world class poker tactics I would say.

have to disagree 100%. The Call pre is an ego spew call, trying to outplay someone OOP, shallow, and with a hand that is dominated by so much of claires range is not good play. Claire's 4x isnt half as bad as the call but 4x from the cutoff is very seldom AA/KK/QQ so she is telegraphing her range towards the big aces 99+ range imo.

[Simon Galloway]

If you are waiting to get a 100BB stack before playing poker in a weekly Luton comp, you may be waiting a while.

Ive gone from bored to very bored now with this hand.  I've offered a ton of support for why I made the play and I have received precisely SFA useful info in return, apart from 'its too shallow for that' well no shit sherlock, I play them all the time.

Show me a good poker player that says they never (knowingly) step out of line and I will show you a liar.

[action man]

If you are waiting to get a 100BB stack before playing poker in a weekly Luton comp, you may be waiting a while.

Ive gone from bored to very bored now with this hand.  I've offered a ton of support for why I made the play and I have received precisely SFA useful info in return, apart from 'its too shallow for that' well no shit sherlock, I play them all the time.

Show me a good poker player that says they never (knowingly) step out of line and I will show you a liar.

your so far off the mark its untrue, but im getting bored now. We'll agree to disagree.

[Simon Galloway]

You're bored?  I've had 5 pages of it.  I don't mind disagreeing, but how about a well structured para or 2 on why I am wrong, rather than 'you're wrong'  I've put a few paragraphs together (largely unread it seems) so I'm hoping someone will do the same in return.

Come up to Luton with 'AJ is the top of c/o range' 'I'm folding every non-premium hand coz its shallow' and 'Im pushing ATC coz its shallow' and I will wave to you as you leave just before the first break.

[EvilPie]

I can't really see a problem with the call given the tournament that is being played.

JT is not the worst hand in the world and if you're going to wait for either a good hand or a reasonable one in an unopened pot with position you're likely to be waiting a long time.

If this is anything like the rebuys I play in occassionally at Gala then you have to take a chance to accumulate some chips to give yourself a chance of some reasonably deep stacked play later in the tournament.

Risking 300 of your effective 8000 total stack to gain a possible 4000 is worth it imo.

I also can't see why the 400 raise from Claire telegraphs the hand so much. I would prefer a 275 raise but I honestly can't see how it makes such a big difference in reading her hand.

Rick. How does this raise discount AA/KK/QQ from her range? Just curious to know what the raise would need to be for you to include these in your possibilities. If the raise is 250 - 300 do you see it as being a top 10 - 15% hand or maybe see it as being a weak steal attempt that you can exploit.

I accept that the 400 raise looks exploitable but it also makes the reraise so much more difficult given the stack sizes as once you reraise you are more or less committed.

[action man]

You're bored?  I've had 5 pages of it.  I don't mind disagreeing, but how about a well structured para or 2 on why I am wrong, rather than 'you're wrong'  I've put a few paragraphs together (largely unread it seems) so I'm hoping someone will do the same in return.

Come up to Luton with 'AJ is the top of c/o range' 'I'm folding every non-premium hand coz its shallow' and 'Im pushing ATC coz its shallow' and I will wave to you as you leave just before the first break.

im trying to earn a living 8 tabling mtt's ive not called a 4x raise with JTo yet though

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: action man

im trying to earn a living 8 tabling mtt's ive not called a 4x raise with JTo yet though

Are you 8 tabling live?

[thetank]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=36807.msg809137#msg809137 date=1221579683]

I've offered a ton of support for why I made the play and I have received precisely SFA useful info in return, apart from 'its too shallow for that' well no shit sherlock, I play them all the time.

I thought this post from Flushy was pretty decent and explains more than just the 'too shallow for that'.

This is the problem of defending you BB with hands that do very bad against a LP raise

An aggressive player is going to raise from the C/O with every single hand that has you dominated. QT KT AT QJ KJ AJ, as well as TT JJ QQ KK AA, you are defending into 1300 pot with 3600 back, if you flop top pair what the fck do you do? Even when you flop a draw you toast chips.

Your not playing deep enough to call to flop a draw to play streets.

The call is ok if you are sure you have a big edge over opponent on future streets.

If opponent played too passively and folded too much for example. Evidently Claw is not this sort of player.

You might be able to get a good read on her to know when she has hit the flop, then calling is ok. JT might as well be ATC though if this is the case.


actionman doesn't believe you were able to gain this edge, I'm sure he has read your reasoning, but believes it to be in error. You disagree, that's fair enough. You can't say that a case has not been put forward though.

[Royal Flush]

Posted by: action man

im trying to earn a living 8 tabling mtt's ive not called a 4x raise with JTo yet though

Are you 8 tabling live?

?

[Royal Flush]

Come up to Luton with 'AJ is the top of c/o range' 'I'm folding every non-premium hand coz its shallow' and 'Im pushing ATC coz its shallow' and I will wave to you as you leave just before the first break.

FWIW i have played a few small buyin comps in Luton and a shed load in other cardrooms and i am fully aware that you don't have the luxury of being able to play lots of deep pots post flop, which is even more the reason to try and play optimal pre.

[MANTIS01]

What would peeps do with 6-6 in this situation? Why/how could you justify getting involved?

? Live is a different kettle of fish imo.

[Royal Flush]

? Live is a different kettle of fish imo.

It's 300 to call out of a 4k stack online and live, that is still too much either online or live....