Squeeze play

[tikay]

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates! 

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

[bolt pp]

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates! 

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

yeah for sure!

It stands to reason that you cant play 8 tables as well as you can play 1

I dont think that concession is  pertinent here though because i  shove here always, live, online, playing 1 or 6 tourneys, it's just the correct play.

[kinboshi]

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates! 

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

Or we play a more optimum game online as we aren't scared about avoiding +EV situations that are marginal.

[tikay]

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates! 

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

Or we play a more optimum game online as we aren't scared about avoiding +EV situations that are marginal.

"Marginal" is correct 50% of the time.......

Without the aid of google, tell me, how often is "marginal" wrong?

[kinboshi]

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates! 

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

Or we play a more optimum game online as we aren't scared about avoiding +EV situations that are marginal.

"Marginal" is correct 50% of the time.......

Without the aid of google, tell me, how often is "marginal" wrong?

Folding 33 here?

[tikay]

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates! 

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

Or we play a more optimum game online as we aren't scared about avoiding +EV situations that are marginal.

"Marginal" is correct 50% of the time.......

Without the aid of google, tell me, how often is "marginal" wrong?

Folding 33 here?

Wrong. We all agreed, it was shove or Call.

[kinboshi]

Or we play a more optimum game online as we aren't scared about avoiding +EV situations that are marginal.

"Marginal" is correct 50% of the time.......

Without the aid of google, tell me, how often is "marginal" wrong?

Folding 33 here?

Wrong. We all agreed, it was shove or Call.

There wasn't unanimity on this.

[NoflopsHomer]

Move the short stack.

[MANTIS01]

Yup.

We play poker as we live our lives - we just do.

I don't like aggravation, confrontation, or fighting, I go for the easy route every time, I avoid trouble, I dodge bullets...I survive. And ditto in poker.

My money will go in when I'm ready, when it suits me, in the "softest" spot there ever was. Which will be a much better spot than this.

Who needs aggro? Find the easy road.

The problem with having this rigid attitude Tony is that you only play your best poker when conditions are right for you. But only then. So when you yourself are a shorty you get into your comfort zone and play good poker. But i've read many times how uncomfortable you feel when you're a big stack. So saying this is how I play, and I play like this all the time regardless is very restrictive....because you aren't willing to change gears. And gear changing or being able to adapt your strategy to changing circumstances is a real skill in tournaments imo.

[tikay]

I like this by Mantis, because it's correct.

The problem with having this rigid attitude Tony is that you only play your best poker when conditions are right for you. But only then. So when you yourself are a shorty you get into your comfort zone and play good poker. But i've read many times how uncomfortable you feel when you're a big stack.

All agreed on that, then.

But this is partly wrong.

So saying this is how I play, and I play like this all the time regardless is very restrictive....because you aren't willing to change gears. And gear changing or being able to adapt your strategy to changing circumstances is a real skill in tournaments imo.

That's a two-parter.

The question was quite specific, & hinged on a key point - his 12 x BB stack, which was sub-average. So I answered it with that in mind. In fact, I ONLY answered it because that is the part of Tourney Poker I excel at, above most others. So it was a question I was in a better position - imo - to answer than most others, because short-stack play is my forte, & I'll take anyone on at short-stack Tourney play, anywhere, anytime, with great confidence, because that's what I do best.

My problem is not short-stacking, I'm brilliant at it. My problem is that I'm always short-stacked, which I'd like to rectify, but can't. That's the gear-change I need, to which you allude. If I could chip-get with the kids, it'd be different, but I can't, I'm risk-averse, & like to sit back & let others do my work for me at the Table. And to be honest, I don't really want to change my style - because I value my Bankroll too much. I'll never win a fortume at Tourney poker - not many will - but I'll never lose, either. And most do. 

So you are right, in that I can't gear-change very well, (though I can adapt strategy easily). But I cope with one gear.

[noble1]

My problem is that I'm always short-stacked, which I'd like to rectify, but can't

And to be honest, I don't really want to change my style

errr you seem to have a conflict with yourself    but seriously playing some HU poker will bring you out of your nit shell

as for 33 in this spot with 12bb 2 limps,the question is are we looking to double up or just to steal,when down to 15bb or less when antes are in play what hands are you waiting for to double up with?

[nirvana]

I like this by Mantis, because it's correct.

The problem with having this rigid attitude Tony is that you only play your best poker when conditions are right for you. But only then. So when you yourself are a shorty you get into your comfort zone and play good poker. But i've read many times how uncomfortable you feel when you're a big stack.

All agreed on that, then.

But this is partly wrong.

So saying this is how I play, and I play like this all the time regardless is very restrictive....because you aren't willing to change gears. And gear changing or being able to adapt your strategy to changing circumstances is a real skill in tournaments imo.

That's a two-parter.

The question was quite specific, & hinged on a key point - his 12 x BB stack, which was sub-average. So I answered it with that in mind. In fact, I ONLY answered it because that is the part of Tourney Poker I excel at, above most others. So it was a question I was in a better position - imo - to answer than most others, because short-stack play is my forte, & I'll take anyone on at short-stack Tourney play, anywhere, anytime, with great confidence, because that's what I do best.

My problem is not short-stacking, I'm brilliant at it. My problem is that I'm always short-stacked, which I'd like to rectify, but can't. That's the gear-change I need, to which you allude. If I could chip-get with the kids, it'd be different, but I can't, I'm risk-averse, & like to sit back & let others do my work for me at the Table. And to be honest, I don't really want to change my style - because I value my Bankroll too much. I'll never win a fortume at Tourney poker - not many will - but I'll never lose, either. And most do. 

So you are right, in that I can't gear-change very well, (though I can adapt strategy easily). But I cope with one gear.

Becoming an interesting thread - I think Tony sums it up. I think I'm reasonably intelligent, quick learner and all that and yet I watch the likes of Flushy, Pab et al play a game that I could never make myself play - however '+EV' it is.

Old dogs maybe but very hard to change your fundamental nature. I'mhappy with the way I play live now, plenty to learn but can make areasonable profit. Online I've had to leave to the young guns cause I couldn't change my game sufficiently to be a consistent winning player.

Also, not totally convinced that what is +EV online is +Ev live given the tiny sample size for a live player - ie we never really get to see the 'long run'. The mathematics telling you your move was +EV as you crash out of tourney after tourney, is not going to do much for your confidence which is a far bigger factor live than +Ev calculations imo,obv.

Will try some gay min betting tonight yo !

[tikay]

My problem is that I'm always short-stacked, which I'd like to rectify, but can't

And to be honest, I don't really want to change my style

errr you seem to have a conflict with yourself    but seriously playing some HU poker will bring you out of your nit shell

as for 33 in this spot with 12bb 2 limps,the question is are we looking to double up or just to steal,when down to 15bb or less when antes are in play what hands are you waiting for to double up with?

Well we'd all like one of those big cock stacks, but I don't want one bad enough to change my style, or game. I'm results-orientated, & I prefer consistent cashes to occasional wins.

There are no Antes in play, or if there are, the OP never mentioned them.

Double-Up or Steal? With 3-3? Steal! I don't want ANY action with this.

Down to 15bb? "Down to"? Jeez, that's nosebleed territory for me!

I'm prob 100% out of step with the whole planet, but for me, 15BB, 12BB, 10BB, these are cruise-mode stacks. Deffo OK to order drinks from the valet.

[tikay]

Will try some gay min betting tonight yo !

Yes yes, do that. Don't forget the "yo", that's key. Apparently.

[noble1]

so tk how do you intend to use your 12bb and with what hands/situations, as any open raise will virtually commit you to the pot, or do you have a cunning plan?

again i ask , are we looking to double up yet and how low do we let our stack fall?


ps
i tend to look to double up when i am 15bb or less when there are antes in play...

my fault with the antes although i did put a comma in as i was asking a different question of you,with no antes i tend to shove to double up 8 to 12bb....

yo yo