Stars rebuy tourney

[George2Loose]

OK this is a hand a good mate of mine played and we've been discussing how he played it. comments on his line??? usually wudnt post up whole hand but think need to in this case:

PokerStars Game #24770442455: Tournament #139359984, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2009/02/10 0:49:39 GMT [2009/02/09 19:49:39 ET]
Table '139359984 239' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: JvilleWhip (1075 in chips)
Seat 2: ComeOnGump (3755 in chips)
Seat 3: UKAssassin (4825 in chips)
Seat 4: johnny19871 (1535 in chips)
Seat 5: Mr Wirchenko (6490 in chips)
Seat 6: thawright (2775 in chips)
Seat 7: WillyFanny (5065 in chips)
Seat 8: Libats (2720 in chips)
Seat 9: clifton3 (3825 in chips)
thawright: posts small blind 50
WillyFanny: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UKAssassin [ ]
Libats: folds
clifton3: calls 100
JvilleWhip: folds
ComeOnGump: folds
UKAssassin: raises 250 to 350
johnny19871: folds
Mr Wirchenko: folds
thawright: folds
WillyFanny: raises 450 to 800
clifton3: folds
UKAssassin: calls 450
*** FLOP *** [ ]
WillyFanny: bets 300
UKAssassin: calls 300
*** TURN *** [ ] []
WillyFanny: bets 700
UKAssassin: calls 700
*** RIVER *** [ ]

WillyFanny: checks UKAssassin: bets 1500 WillyFanny: calls 1500 *** SHOW DOWN *** UKAssassin: shows [ ] (a straight, Eight to Queen) WillyFanny: shows [ ] (three of a kind, Queens) UKAssassin collected 6750 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 6750 | Rake 0 Board [ ] Seat 1: JvilleWhip folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: ComeOnGump folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: UKAssassin showed [ ] and won (6750) with a straight, Eight to Queen Seat 4: johnny19871 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Mr Wirchenko (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: thawright (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 7: WillyFanny (big blind) showed [ ] and lost with three of a kind, Queens Seat 8: Libats folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: clifton3 folded before Flop

[George2Loose]

sorryy luittle bit of background. The table has been passive and when the re raiser raises my mate put him on the following range:

JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK.

[gatso]

when the re raiser raises my mate put him on the following range:

JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK.

so why does he call the rr?

[GreekStein]

Fold pre

[seven2unsuited]

i would shove it in on the flop, hopefully hit the flush and double if not get the dosh out to rebuy.

[GlasgowBandit]

Fold pre

This obviously.

[ThudNBlunder]

Hi- I'm the fish that played the hand and just to correct George- it wasn't a re-buy, it was a freezeout. The table had been v passive with a lot of limping trying to see flops. There were still about 3,000 people left in the tourney. Obv my raise pre was to try and take it down- it had been working quite effectively.
He has the range right- I put him on 10s through AA with AK and AQ

Is the fold to the re-raise pre automatic considering the size of the re-raise?

[ItsMrAlex2u]

But having called pre, shove on flop.

Calling down is horrible

[MANTIS01]

If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7.

[ItsMrAlex2u]

If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7.

Thats roughly what I said

[ThudNBlunder]

Why shove on the flop? Surely if my read of his range is right I only have fold equity against 2 hands- and I'm throwing all my chips in with J high. I'm still pretty deep compared to the blinds.
Again I ask- why the auto fold pre flop to the re-raise? This seems to be the point I'm missing- and I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm right and everyone else is wrong!!- but it seems to me that the reraise is too small to warrant a fold. Against his range I'm getting the right price- and it's not crippling me to call.

[MANTIS01]

If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7.

Thats roughly what I said

Not really bud. You said push all-in for 4k vs a known premium hand with a J-high fd after villain bets 300. But if you take that bit out I would agree it's the same.

[ItsMrAlex2u]

Sorry mate but the hand is just wrong.

Raise pre is fine
Call re raise is questionable but ok. Only really questionable as you have his range at such premium hands.
However the reraise is small so....

But what are you calling the re raise for? to catch a flop.  You havent exactly caught it but it aint bad for calling a reraise with J 7.

Either follow through with the agression or fold to the reraise IMO.

His bet sizing though adds to complete mess of a hand. I suppose I can see the call for 300 as its so cheap and you were then married to it for the next "small" call.

Shrug and move on. Wont learn a lot from this one as he should have been betting bigger.

What do you do if he leads for 900+ on the flop?

[ItsMrAlex2u]

If the game is passive then raising pre with atc is fine imo. Why not? You recognise aggression gives you the edge to beat a tight game. So the pre-flop raise is a solid strat imo. However, in the context of this tight game any re-raise is prob going to be a premium hand, as George confirms. So why not just recognise that fact and muck the J-7? Cos what happens is you go on to call the re-raise, call the flop, and call the turn all the time with the worst hand. But you raised pre with J-7 cos you wanna defeat this passive game with aggression, so why are you calling all your chips away? What's more you know your oppo isn't bluffing so the potential to bluff a checked river if you miss is limited. You want to beat a tight game by putting your chips in passively chasing draws to bust big pairs? I think that strat is just plain bad. Especially when you know they can be used to better effect aggressively, hence why you raised with J-7.

Thats roughly what I said

Not really bud. You said push all-in for 4k vs a known premium hand with a J-high fd after villain bets 300. But if you take that bit out I would agree it's the same.

It was a joke based on my blunt response and your detailed one!

Never mind.........

[ThudNBlunder]

The reason for this hand being discussed in the first place is that I know it's a hole in my game that I occasionally get too married to the pot odds and forget other factors. I called the reraise based purely on pot odds; same goes for the flat calling on the flop and turn. Because of my read of his range I decided to forgo continuing the aggression as I may have put myself in a position where I wouldn't have been able to call; or I've committed myself with a draw (which I felt no need to do considering stack sizes).

Incidentally I'm only getting the wrong price aginst his range if I leave out AK, AQ and 10s.

However there is a variety of opinion on the river- I feel I made a big mistake there.

If he bets 900 on the flop I fold. If he bets the right amount at any point I fold!!