DTD £75FO decision

[david3103]

I'm getting the impression that my initial call wasn't a good move... why did I do it?

I don't like shoving UTG with 7 or 8 players behind me unless I definitely want a call. (AA yes/KK yes/QQ maybe)

 

I was young and full of certainty once too.

Could you clarify why you felt highlighting this specific part of my post was necessary?

I am a recreational poker player and had stepped up a level to play in a £75 FO using my own money to do so. I felt that in general I raised my game on the night in the same way that my golf game has been raised in the past by playing against better players, on better courses.

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe), but I had two significant hands late on of which this was the first.

Trying not to see this from a results-oriented view (K on flop, K on turn) I wanted to get views on my decision. I've had them and acknowledge that a shove pre might be the way, but I have to say that my own poker/character defects will probably always prevent me from making that particular move with 11+BB.

[TheChipPrince]

I would prefer to jam virtually any 2 on the button rather than shove KQ into 7 players, my preference is to fold pre. 

Definetly fold now.

This isn't bad, but it's not an either-or choice right now. Firstly that opportunity has to present itself by everyone folding round to you...and with stacks like 3.5k knocking about that opportunity might not present itself in the next couple of hands. Then if you do push successfully you get back the stack you've got now so you don't make any progress for that move and we find ourselves back in this predicament again. If you do get called by pairs you wont be in good shape at all. And finally a tight player pushing UTG does carry some weight in a live game vs a button push.

This is actually a decent post Mantis...  Do you shove with no ante's?  At what depth of BB's do you NOT shove here?

[MANTIS01]

David, people like pushing their chips in way more than they like calling their chips in. If you push only when you want a call you will be disappointed a lot of the time when everyone folds. In this instance the likes of J-8 and A-9 will go away when you push and you'll buy yourself some valuable time. People may not believe you (your image says otherwise) but they will still need a hand to call with, and the chances there's a monster out there is pretty slim. People may call you with pairs but that's kinda ok under the circumstances considering your aim is to win all the chips rather than outlast Joe who's 2nd in the league.

[MANTIS01]

I would prefer to jam virtually any 2 on the button rather than shove KQ into 7 players, my preference is to fold pre. 

Definetly fold now.

This isn't bad, but it's not an either-or choice right now. Firstly that opportunity has to present itself by everyone folding round to you...and with stacks like 3.5k knocking about that opportunity might not present itself in the next couple of hands. Then if you do push successfully you get back the stack you've got now so you don't make any progress for that move and we find ourselves back in this predicament again. If you do get called by pairs you wont be in good shape at all. And finally a tight player pushing UTG does carry some weight in a live game vs a button push.

This is actually a decent post Mantis...  Do you shove with no ante's?  At what depth of BB's do you NOT shove here?

Not sure really bud, game dependant I suppose. Last night I shoved 5-5 UTG with 18k @ 1000/2000/100. Is that bad? Got called by 7-7 in 2nd position and A-Q in bb. Guy with 7-7 won over 60k and had dancin chips. But calling in 2nd pos with 7-7 was v marginal (guy shrug-called thinking he was in bad shape).

5-5 vs A-Q (having to call) would have been +1 imo.

[david3103]

David, people like pushing their chips in way more than they like calling their chips in. If you push only when you want a call you will be disappointed a lot of the time when everyone folds. In this instance the likes of J-8 and A-9 will go away when you push and you'll buy yourself some valuable time. People may not believe you (your image says otherwise) but they will still need a hand to call with, and the chances there's a monster out there is pretty slim. People may call you with pairs but that's kinda ok under the circumstances considering your aim is to win all the chips rather than outlast Joe who's 2nd in the league.

Can't argue with this - as I said, it is perhaps a flaw in my game that I am reluctant to make these moves from early positions. I'm improving though, there was a time when I would allow myself to get down to a level where my shove was an autocall from the BB and not a hard decision for the SB.

[MC]

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe),

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't see how you can equate lasting longer in one random tourament to an appropriation of skill...

[thetank]

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe),

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't see how you can equate lasting longer in one random tourament to an appropriation of skill...

Well put

[StuartHopkin]

Couldnt let him be proud of his performance guys?

[thetank]

It's the hand analysis board, not the clap on the back whatever board.

MC was politely pointing out an area where his thinking may be flawed.

[david3103]

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe),

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't see how you can equate lasting longer in one random tourament to an appropriation of skill...

Fair comment.

But regardless of my exit point, I still felt I played well. You have no way of knowing if that's the case so you'll have to take my word for it.

But whatever ... tbh I've heard enough on this thread to accept that

a) Limping UTG with KQ is not considered a good idea by the majority
b) Folding to the specific circumstances of the shove and re-raise is the unanimously recommended line.


Question... If I rewrite the HH to give me AK off, and still limp call UTG would you still fold ?

[paulhouk03]

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe),

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't see how you can equate lasting longer in one random tourament to an appropriation of skill...

Fair comment.

But regardless of my exit point, I still felt I played well. You have no way of knowing if that's the case so you'll have to take my word for it.

But whatever ... tbh I've heard enough on this thread to accept that

a) Limping UTG with KQ is not considered a good idea by the majority
b) Folding to the specific circumstances of the shove and re-raise is the unanimously recommended line.


Question... If I rewrite the HH to give me AK off, and still limp call UTG would you still fold ?

wouldnt limp always raise/shove

[david3103]

I outlasted people with substantially more experience at DTD (two at my first table were in the top tranche of the monthly leaderboard I believe),

Not meaning to be rude, but I don't see how you can equate lasting longer in one random tourament to an appropriation of skill...

Fair comment.

But regardless of my exit point, I still felt I played well. You have no way of knowing if that's the case so you'll have to take my word for it.

But whatever ... tbh I've heard enough on this thread to accept that

a) Limping UTG with KQ is not considered a good idea by the majority
b) Folding to the specific circumstances of the shove and re-raise is the unanimously recommended line.


Question... If I rewrite the HH to give me AK off, and still limp call UTG would you still fold ?

wouldnt limp always raise/shove

2

[ ] this is helpful

[kinboshi]

He wasn't trying to be helpful, just trying to boost his post count to reach 300.

But he's right.  With so few BBs, you don't want to be limping with anything really. With AK you would be shoving it all in.

[Longy]

This is pretty close between shoving and folding, i would shove but it is pretty close to neutral equity. Limping is of course really bad.

To pick up a few point from earlier in the thread

I would prefer to jam virtually any 2 on the button rather than shove KQ into 7 players, my preference is to fold pre. 

Definetly fold now.

really?

Umm, I think so, although the 400 extra for ante's may sway me on reflection... Close imo

Chipprince is right here Alex, shoving 23o from the button has about the same expectation as shoving kq from utg cEV wise given standard calling ranges. In fact in live poker shoving 23o is probably better cos you get a lot of bad nits. Whereas shoving kq changes little in equity whether people are tight or not, due to having to push through so many people.

[MANTIS01]

Question... If I rewrite the HH to give me AK off, and still limp call UTG would you still fold ?

If that was the case there would be a massive difference in your strategy. If you had A-K you would be limping to trap...as opposed to limping to see how things develop with the K-Q. The important point to appreciate is you don't have enough chips to limp-fold UTG at this point. So you should only be limping in this situation with that question already answered. Limping is better than standard raising at a busy table with your stack imo, but pushing is never bad in this spot either, and yes you want those chips in the middle no question.