rulingthread (not made one of these in a while)

[Cf]

Ok, me and girgy were both on this table, and I was dealing (not that that really makes any difference). My first instinct was that the hand was dead. Girgy and some others thought the hand is live, but he can only call, not raise. We got the card room supervisor over and a typical "grosvenor ruling" was made that he could call. So he did. The big blind went all in, UTG player called and had his KK busted by the BBs AJ.

I was pretty sure I was right on this one so RRs to the rescue:

12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act.

So, the magic number of 3 players. I note the rule says MAY lose the right to act, but I think this decision is pretty clear cut - you simply cannot fail to notice the entire table act on a hand out of turn and expect to keep your hand. Scope for all sorts of angle shoots here, esp given what he was holding! (though i don't think he was trying to pull an angle, think it was simply a case of being new to the game)

[Girgy85]

Ok, me and girgy were both on this table, and I was dealing (not that that really makes any difference). My first instinct was that the hand was dead. Girgy and some others thought the hand is live, but he can only call, not raise. We got the card room supervisor over and a typical "grosvenor ruling" was made that he could call. So he did. The big blind went all in, UTG player called and had his KK busted by the BBs AJ.

I was pretty sure I was right on this one so RRs to the rescue:

12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act.

So, the magic number of 3 players. I note the rule says MAY lose the right to act, but I think this decision is pretty clear cut - you simply cannot fail to notice the entire table act on a hand out of turn and expect to keep your hand. Scope for all sorts of angle shoots here, esp given what he was holding! (though i don't think he was trying to pull an angle, think it was simply a case of being new to the game)

Like you say all aspects point to he was new to the game so really didnt know the procedures. Also i would of agreed his hand was dead if there had been a raise before he spoke up.

[phatomch]

again grosvenor makes the wrong ruling when there own rulings are that if 3 people have made action than the players hand is dead

[relaedgc]

again grosvenor makes the wrong ruling when there own rulings are that if 3 people have made action than the players hand is dead

Grosvenor rules state that if three or more people have acted then the hand is dead. Why these card room supervisors in provincial casinos cant even grasp the basic company rules is beyond me.

[EvilPie]

again grosvenor makes the wrong ruling when there own rulings are that if 3 people have made action than the players hand is dead

Grosvenor rules state that if three or more people have acted then the hand is dead. Why these card room supervisors in provincial casinos cant even grasp the basic company rules is beyond me.

Does passing count as action?

What I mean is if someone acts out of turn behind you then 2 more instamuck before you get a chance to say anything would the hand be dead?

Obviously if there's betting action then you really should have time to notice and say something but if people are passing it can happen very fast.

[#1Instigator]

passing is not counted as an action. Only betting or raising constitutes as an action

[dik9]

passing is not counted as an action. Only betting or raising constitutes as an action

Not technically right #1 say it was 5 handed and it is (you) UTG to act and you have a marginal hand  4 and 5 pass so you are now left against the blinds, has/will this have changed your decision?

[phatomch]

passing is not counted as an action. Only betting or raising constitutes as an action

yes it is.

[gatso]

of course passing is an action

[#1Instigator]

i should really have read the posts before i replied. I was refering to out of turn betting and whether folding counts as action that re-opens new options...but nvm
According to Robert's rules, its 2 players and the cards are dead. Obvious the dealer needs to have basic common sense and not kill player's hands if the out of turn folding happened too quick and the player was not buying time to gain any sort of advantage.

[dik9]

iObvious the dealer needs to have basic common sense and not kill player's hands if the out of turn folding happened too quick and the player was not buying time to gain any sort of advantage.

Well said!!

Although technically if the hands are folded out of turn quickly, action has taken place, this should be at the dealers discretion IMO, I had an incident whereby someone folded out of turn (seat 9), I have immediately brought this to the players attention, yet a mexican wave of folding happened behind me whilst I am waiting for player to  act. I never killed his hand as he had done nothing wrong and acted quite quick (not taking advantage etc)

[phatomch]

no dealers dont have the discretion, thats what td's are for it takes the onius from the deale, they do what they are told and nothing else.

[dik9]

Sorry, I used the word discretion instead of common sense