Big Slick £300. In the money 2 chip leaders collide

[GreekStein]

Just out of interest cos, ever consider check raising the turn???

WTF??

What would be the reasoning to do so?

Never crossed my mind as I'm essentially turning my hand into a bluff/repping a v small range (basically JJJ or AAA).

I've already fucked up by calling pre so I'm trying not to stack off if I can avoid it, esp since I can do half my stack in this hand and still have one of the bigger stacks in the tournament and a significant edge on the other players. If I check raise I'd have put in like 260k of my 390k and prob not going to fold if I get set in which obviously I'd hate.

 

[boldie]

Just out of interest cos, ever consider check raising the turn???

WTF??

What would be the reasoning to do so?

Never crossed my mind as I'm essentially turning my hand into a bluff/repping a v small range (basically JJJ or AAA).

I've already fucked up by calling pre so I'm trying not to stack off if I can avoid it, esp since I can do half my stack in this hand and still have one of the bigger stacks in the tournament and a significant edge on the other players. If I check raise I'd have put in like 260k of my 390k and prob not going to fold if I get set in which obviously I'd hate.

 

so you folded the river push?..did he show?

[daviebhoy]

so you folded the river push?..did he show?

Villain showing 55 here would cap it all off. Difficult to see how he can have anything less than JJ here.

[MANTIS01]

People shouldn't be so quick to say we are beat here. I agree that his line looks like a big hand but does the LAG necessarily need a big hand to take that line? All he really needs with the benefit of his position is the knowledge we don't have a big hand. And we don't. He knows that cos we've checked to him on all 3 streets. So he knows WE don't have A-A, and thus he can make this play. GreekStein is desperately trying to avoid stacking off in this hand and plays it accordingly. Villain only needs to pick up that his oppo doesn't want to stack off to give him the green light to shove and ask his oppo if he wants to stack off. I would say villain knows we have an Ace. So the question is would this villain have the heart to squeeze us off an Ace? From the initial description of villain this seems possible, but it's very difficult to come to a conclusion without being there. Truly horrible spot. Yet a very fitting spot to find ourselves in after the 4-bet call pre-flop imo.

[GreekStein]

I dwelled up for quite a while as I knew he was never shoving AK there and knew he wasnt 4-balling me pre with JJ or AJ but I was talking to him a bit and it seemed like he was doing everything to make me call. I passed and he showed AA.

I'm a dickhead for playing a hand so bad pre (i.e calling a 4-bet with my hand - I think fold is just best) but think the rest was ok now looking back.

Thanks for your responses guys.

[George2Loose]

People shouldn't be so quick to say we are beat here. I agree that his line looks like a big hand but does the LAG necessarily need a big hand to take that line? All he really needs with the benefit of his position is the knowledge we don't have a big hand. And we don't. He knows that cos we've checked to him on all 3 streets. So he knows WE don't have A-A, and thus he can make this play. GreekStein is desperately trying to avoid stacking off in this hand and plays it accordingly. Villain only needs to pick up that his oppo doesn't want to stack off to give him the green light to shove and ask his oppo if he wants to stack off. I would say villain knows we have an Ace. So the question is would this villain have the heart to squeeze us off an Ace? From the initial description of villain this seems possible, but it's very difficult to come to a conclusion without being there. Truly horrible spot. Yet a very fitting spot to find ourselves in after the 4-bet call pre-flop imo.

This is why I prefer to lead the turn- he's got to have some balls to c/raise turn with air float to bet river. If he has an inferior holding I'd imagine the river would go check/check assuming he calls our turn bet

I still think however even with the line Cos took- we are beat.

[daviebhoy]

Agreed he can be bluffing here with KK or QQ. If so he has successfully taken the same line as though he had AA. I'd say he was more likely to have AA given that would be standard line but well played if he has KK here.

He is asking the question do we want to stack off ? From GreekSteins last update I think the answer is no, we don't.

[outragous76]

People shouldn't be so quick to say we are beat here. I agree that his line looks like a big hand but does the LAG necessarily need a big hand to take that line? All he really needs with the benefit of his position is the knowledge we don't have a big hand. And we don't. He knows that cos we've checked to him on all 3 streets. So he knows WE don't have A-A, and thus he can make this play. GreekStein is desperately trying to avoid stacking off in this hand and plays it accordingly. Villain only needs to pick up that his oppo doesn't want to stack off to give him the green light to shove and ask his oppo if he wants to stack off. I would say villain knows we have an Ace. So the question is would this villain have the heart to squeeze us off an Ace? From the initial description of villain this seems possible, but it's very difficult to come to a conclusion without being there. Truly horrible spot. Yet a very fitting spot to find ourselves in after the 4-bet call pre-flop imo.

I think this falls into my 5% bracket. Lets not forget that the villain is CL and if he isnt holding AA (or even just a single A) - he cant truely define our hand. I have been known to LAG it up especially against weaker opponents (not a comment about greek) - but you have got to be super confident that you are not going to get an "ah fk it " type call from Ax (given that baord pairs on the end). You are just going to see that here too often in this spot with 2 huge stacks. After the 65k call he only has 240k - and the pot is offering 3:1 if the villain shoves.

I think that the hand is wrapped up on the turn (given the ck on the flop) and the hero can pretty much call the villains hand at this point.

For me the villain could have stacked the hero if he weak leads the flop (65k), checks the turn (after looking at cards) and then if the hero gets to a point where he thinks he can v bet the end (due to paired board), he would probably have to call the shove on the end at that point.

I guess it is easy to disect the hand after the event. I think the only true error by the villain was the size of the v bet on the turn - i think 100k gets paid (and could even induce the call on the end - but prob not).

[MANTIS01]

Sorry, buddy I don't get how Villain can't define our hand. We check the flop. We check the turn. We call a small bet. We check the river. It is clear our aim is to play as small a pot as possible and as such our hand is clearly defined. Now villain knows we want to play a small pot he can use his position to ask us if we want to stack off....because he knows we don't. Villain is a LAG, the CL, can play and sees us as capable and solid. I think saying he bluffs 5% of the time doesn't respect his ability to be better than that vs us, and it doesn't tie in with the reason Hero called pre...namely villain is very active and possibly spewy in places. This sort of player doesn't have the nuts 95% of the time because he chooses to use a strong line vs perceived weakness. But whatever, the 4-bet call pre is shown to be pretty bad come the river cos of this situation. We have been forced to act pretty weak from that point on even though we hit and so we can't know for sure if villain has it. If he doesn't have it his river bet is good poker imo.

[outragous76]

I am not disputing what you say - im just saying that it is a very easy hand for the villain when he holds (even 1 A - let alone 2). I just dont think that people make this play too often without the goods. I dont know who the villain is, but to bluff this spot you have to be super super sick.  - thats my 5%

I think the problem any LAG has here (lets assume he is bluffing with absolutely nothing to put the A's back in the deck). Assuming solid play - he cant not put the hero on AA (as played). Against a villain capable of shoving on the end (a super sicko), there are times when you could check the nuts on the river to  set the play up. Ok this is unlikely - as most time you value bet - but there is always that possibility. So he is going to give up what is a very good spot (of having 300k left or whatever he has if he loses) to risk taking a 300k pot on a stone cold bluff. Its a massive play.

Finally - and this again reinforces the point above. How does the hand play out if the Hero has AK? I think the chips end up in the middle! This again is a risk to the bluff shove on the end

[AlexMartin]

check call flop and probably check fold the turn.

With a hand expectation like that, it gives support to Tank's line.

get the fk out lol!!!!


is Mr. Saban ever gonna run a deep bluff here? no thought not. see you at luton tonight boss? dinner MIGHT be on me.......