Removing my flop-tinted spectacles

[nirvana]

I think this is one of those situations where we look back later and realise it could only be 2 particular cards

[Pyso]

Come on- this is ridic. You can't fold here.

Sometimes in poker you get what's called a cold deck. Shit happens!!!

I agree with this up to a point. Yes, shit happens, but if you can see it coming then why go ahead and invite it in anyway? I think this hand illustrates this perfectly. His range is so squeakingly narrow that me shoving is nothing more than a defiant finger to the poker gods. Still, I enjoyed the moment, lol.

I'm also being accused of too much thinking. Since when has that been a bad thing for a poker player?

I don't intend to make a habit of folding the second nuts, but I want someone, one day, somewhere in the poker universe, to agree with me that it is possible to either fold (maybe not) or just call in the spot I described.

[Simon Galloway]

I think this is one of those situations where we look back later and realise it could only be 2 particular cards

right up to the moment when you have played a few of these and villain shows up a few times without any clubs in their hand at all.  Then it dawns that folding the ace flush aint gonna happen.  Ever.

[MANTIS01]

No, this post isn't a level. I think it illustrates well how it is possible to ignore everything that is telling you that you are probably beat and then defiantly shoving anyway. I was never ever passing. I should have flat called. At least I would have had a few chips left and still been able to make a comeback. I'm a cash game player really and in a cash game this is an almost certain instant shove obviously, but tourneys are different. You don't have a re-load option.

If you are genuinely interested in coming out of your bad patch Psyo read this part of your second post and realise how ridiculous it sounds. It's not the attitude of some hard-ass poker player is it? It's a pretty weak and pathetic attitude. You feel the need to reassure us your post isn't a level and you speculate about the fantastical odds of flopping nut flush vs straight flush. Why? Well I'll tell you that them odds are too big to even consider. So why are you considering them? It's because you've had a few coolers and it's gettin inside your head a bit. You are in a £20 tournament playing people you know little about, so the odds they are actually crazy are better than this cooler happening. The weight you're putting on the cooler is your problem my friend...you're not "reading it" like you say...you're just fretting about it too much. Please don't aspire to limp on in a tournament with a few chips because you flatted a bet scared of the straight flush. Pull yourself together man. Remember!! You've been running horifically bad. This attitude is why.

In fact why are people constantly putting up these coolers on PHA and making me read "we should play cautious cos you never know" type comments. It's making me feel sick. C'mon guys, we're supposed to be hard-ass aren't we?? Jesus.

[nirvana]

Simon[/url] Galloway link=topic=41736.msg959485#msg959485 date=1241643956]

I think this is one of those situations where we look back later and realise it could only be 2 particular cards

right up to the moment when you have played a few of these and villain shows up a few times without any clubs in their hand at all.  Then it dawns that folding the ace flush aint gonna happen.  Ever.

That's my point (badly made) really Simon, we rationalise it after the event - at the time when we're playing we're never really thinking a fold is an option (as some of the posts suggest) or seriously trying to put the guy on those 2 cards - you can't actually do it hence the OP shoves. Its just a 50p thing rather than a hand analysis is kinda what I'm geting at

I should of said something along the lines that it's only later that we decide that all the clues existed to precisely put someone on exactly 2 cards

[Pyso]

No, this post isn't a level. I think it illustrates well how it is possible to ignore everything that is telling you that you are probably beat and then defiantly shoving anyway. I was never ever passing. I should have flat called. At least I would have had a few chips left and still been able to make a comeback. I'm a cash game player really and in a cash game this is an almost certain instant shove obviously, but tourneys are different. You don't have a re-load option.

If you are genuinely interested in coming out of your bad patch Psyo read this part of your second post and realise how ridiculous it sounds. It's not the attitude of some hard-ass poker player is it? It's a pretty weak and pathetic attitude. You feel the need to reassure us your post isn't a level and you speculate about the fantastical odds of flopping nut flush vs straight flush. Why? Well I'll tell you that them odds are too big to even consider. So why are you considering them? It's because you've had a few coolers and it's gettin inside your head a bit. You are in a £20 tournament playing people you know little about, so the odds they are actually crazy are better than this cooler happening. The weight you're putting on the cooler is your problem my friend...you're not "reading it" like you say...you're just fretting about it too much. Please don't aspire to limp on in a tournament with a few chips because you flatted a bet scared of the straight flush. Pull yourself together man. Remember!! You've been running horifically bad. This attitude is why.

In fact why are people constantly putting up these coolers on PHA and making me read "we should play cautious cos you never know" type comments. It's making me feel sick. C'mon guys, we're supposed to be hard-ass aren't we?? Jesus.

Mantis, thanks for the comments. Yes, my head has gone somewhat because the crazy shit I described keeps happening. I suppose part of the reason for posting was as a kind of cathartic release from the stupidity of it all.

You say I am running bad because of my attitude. I don't know how I feel about this. I agree that my attitude is fucked because I've been running bad but can it be the other way round? This hand would still have happened even if I was running well, it's just that my reaction to it would have been different.

As for being hard ass, well yes that is what we poker players normally are, but even with a titanium ass on Tuesday night I knew he had the straight flush and over that I'm not bullshitting. Nirvana has suggested that my post was a 50p post and that I could only say that I knew he had those exact two cards after the event. Well, half the point of my post was that I did realise it was a possibility, did realise it was highly likely, didn't say so at the table because I didn't need to, and then because of my mindset, shoved anyway, as most have said I should have done.

I am now going to take a little break from the game and start firming up my ass.

[MANTIS01]

No, this post isn't a level. I think it illustrates well how it is possible to ignore everything that is telling you that you are probably beat and then defiantly shoving anyway. I was never ever passing. I should have flat called. At least I would have had a few chips left and still been able to make a comeback. I'm a cash game player really and in a cash game this is an almost certain instant shove obviously, but tourneys are different. You don't have a re-load option.

If you are genuinely interested in coming out of your bad patch Psyo read this part of your second post and realise how ridiculous it sounds. It's not the attitude of some hard-ass poker player is it? It's a pretty weak and pathetic attitude. You feel the need to reassure us your post isn't a level and you speculate about the fantastical odds of flopping nut flush vs straight flush. Why? Well I'll tell you that them odds are too big to even consider. So why are you considering them? It's because you've had a few coolers and it's gettin inside your head a bit. You are in a £20 tournament playing people you know little about, so the odds they are actually crazy are better than this cooler happening. The weight you're putting on the cooler is your problem my friend...you're not "reading it" like you say...you're just fretting about it too much. Please don't aspire to limp on in a tournament with a few chips because you flatted a bet scared of the straight flush. Pull yourself together man. Remember!! You've been running horifically bad. This attitude is why.

In fact why are people constantly putting up these coolers on PHA and making me read "we should play cautious cos you never know" type comments. It's making me feel sick. C'mon guys, we're supposed to be hard-ass aren't we?? Jesus.

Mantis, thanks for the comments. Yes, my head has gone somewhat because the crazy shit I described keeps happening. I suppose part of the reason for posting was as a kind of cathartic release from the stupidity of it all.

You say I am running bad because of my attitude. I don't know how I feel about this. I agree that my attitude is fucked because I've been running bad but can it be the other way round? This hand would still have happened even if I was running well, it's just that my reaction to it would have been different.

As for being hard ass, well yes that is what we poker players normally are, but even with a titanium ass on Tuesday night I knew he had the straight flush and over that I'm not bullshitting. Nirvana has suggested that my post was a 50p post and that I could only say that I knew he had those exact two cards after the event. Well, half the point of my post was that I did realise it was a possibility, did realise it was highly likely, didn't say so at the table because I didn't need to, and then because of my mindset, shoved anyway, as most have said I should have done.

I am now going to take a little break from the game and start firming up my ass.

Fair play. Listen, I'm not saying that an attitude can prevent a specific hand from happening, but it will definitely affect your performance overall. You said that in cash you would jam this nut flush hand hard. Why? Because you want to maximise your value. In a tournament you want to maximise your value too!! But if a weak attitude is going to prevent you from maximising the value because you're scared of a cooler and going out then you wont be playing the tournament to the best of your abilities. You will be missing value and acquiring less chips than you should and that will have a knock on effect throughout the event.

There is of course a debate to be had with regard to sacrificing value to maintain your tournament life in some situations but my point is that we can't have that debate when we're holding the 2nd nuts on the river and we're only behind to a straight flush. Both this hand and Tighty's kings full hand are the same. We have the 2nd nuts come the river and we're fretting about silly stuff. If we just pledge to find ways to get our chips in any time we have the 2nd nuts and we can only be losing to a straight flush, a royal flush or quads we will be making money and maximising our value, end of. If we accept this as our standard goal with the 2nd nuts we can't know our oppo has the nuts cos it doesn't even matter to us...cos we're never folding. We can fear that's how bad we are running right now, but that's just our brain fecking with us...ignore it...become hard-ass...simples.

[nirvana]

No, this post isn't a level. I think it illustrates well how it is possible to ignore everything that is telling you that you are probably beat and then defiantly shoving anyway. I was never ever passing. I should have flat called. At least I would have had a few chips left and still been able to make a comeback. I'm a cash game player really and in a cash game this is an almost certain instant shove obviously, but tourneys are different. You don't have a re-load option.

If you are genuinely interested in coming out of your bad patch Psyo read this part of your second post and realise how ridiculous it sounds. It's not the attitude of some hard-ass poker player is it? It's a pretty weak and pathetic attitude. You feel the need to reassure us your post isn't a level and you speculate about the fantastical odds of flopping nut flush vs straight flush. Why? Well I'll tell you that them odds are too big to even consider. So why are you considering them? It's because you've had a few coolers and it's gettin inside your head a bit. You are in a £20 tournament playing people you know little about, so the odds they are actually crazy are better than this cooler happening. The weight you're putting on the cooler is your problem my friend...you're not "reading it" like you say...you're just fretting about it too much. Please don't aspire to limp on in a tournament with a few chips because you flatted a bet scared of the straight flush. Pull yourself together man. Remember!! You've been running horifically bad. This attitude is why.

In fact why are people constantly putting up these coolers on PHA and making me read "we should play cautious cos you never know" type comments. It's making me feel sick. C'mon guys, we're supposed to be hard-ass aren't we?? Jesus.

Mantis, thanks for the comments. Yes, my head has gone somewhat because the crazy shit I described keeps happening. I suppose part of the reason for posting was as a kind of cathartic release from the stupidity of it all.

You say I am running bad because of my attitude. I don't know how I feel about this. I agree that my attitude is fucked because I've been running bad but can it be the other way round? This hand would still have happened even if I was running well, it's just that my reaction to it would have been different.

As for being hard ass, well yes that is what we poker players normally are, but even with a titanium ass on Tuesday night I knew he had the straight flush and over that I'm not bullshitting. Nirvana has suggested that my post was a 50p post and that I could only say that I knew he had those exact two cards after the event. Well, half the point of my post was that I did realise it was a possibility, did realise it was highly likely, didn't say so at the table because I didn't need to, and then because of my mindset, shoved anyway, as most have said I should have done.

I am now going to take a little break from the game and start firming up my ass.

I hope you realise I didn't mean to be rude when I mentioned the 50p thing. Just meant there isn't much to analyse in poker terms. You're opportunity for some catharsis and mantis' analysis of mindeset and attitudes is interesting all the same :-)

[Steve Swift]

Wow,

Great post.

I need to read all of these and stop wasting my time playing (well not really). These posts give great POV and food for thought.  I as a dip shit would have them all in, i as i dip shit would have thought if he has the nutz i am ul. I probably would have been blinded by the A that i might not even have  considered the 78... but TBF i do suck.

Do we do this thought process on line all the time, coz we know lesser flushes would be in there plus bluffs plus a lot worse.  You guys must think quick to keep up with this thought process during a game and what about when you multi table.

Thanks for these posts i really think they are goner help my game.

Regards

Steve