Line check for bluff.

[EvilPie]

I made a little move at DTD last night and oppo found a good call. Just wondered what people thought of my line in general.

Oppo said after that he wouldn't make the move against most but knew it was the sort of thing I would do.

So it's a live comp. Blinds are 25/50 and everyone is on about 5k.

I'm in the BB with 

MP raises to 225!! WTF!! He's a cash player and very spewey. cut off and button both call so I call as well. Yes I knpw I should probably pass here but I didn't.

Pot is 925

Flop

   

I check

MP bets 525. Cut off passes button calls, I call.

Pot is now 2500 and worth having

Turn



I now lead out for 850. I know that MP will bet again and it could be expensive to call so this is supposed to get me a cheap river and also disguise my flush if I hit so I can get his whole stack. Good or bad idea??

Both oppos call but MP's call is slow and he doesn't look entirely happy. Button makes an easy call. I now don't really want to hit my flush as I'm putting button on the draw.

River



So there's just over 5k in the pot and the only way I can win it is to bet again.

I make it 1625 leaving 2.2k back. Is this too small. It's supposed to look like a VB and it's a fair portion of oppos stacks despite what's there to be won.

MP tanks then folds.

Button tanks then calls with 

So is this an easy call for oppo? I just want to know if anyone thinks my move should get through or if it's transparent?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[titaniumbean]

What are you representing?

77 that peeled the flop? a set that didn't raise the flop but then lead the turn even though you know he's likely to bet again? you could have T7 aswell maaaaybe.

If you had a set and there is 5k in the pot and you have 3.8k. why would you care about your bet size, you have less than a pot size bet so if you are going to bet i'd shove.

Also if he's a cash player he is going to be more likely to make a hero call so he's prob not the best person to make this kind of move at.

[EvilPie]

It wasn't the cash player that made the call but I know what you mean.

My problem like you say is what am I representing?

The main reason I want advice here tbh is because I'd like to look at taking this same line with a made hand looking to value town the hero caller.

It's something I want to do but am trying to work out the kind of board to do it on and how to size the bets to get the call.

[titaniumbean]

Ah sorry I made a few misreads as I was looking at it as to the flop action.

You need a few changes to the dynamic to make this profitable I think, either a much better idea of ranges or tendencies or just a hu pot.

I assume you didn't c/r the flop because you dont want to c/r fold with these stacks and you dont want to get it in here with a bare fd this early. I have taken this line before with lock hands as it were essentially gambling that the turn falls clean and then trying to pump the pot. It puts you in some really funky turn spots when a draw completes and you feel your hand is under-repped though which in turn can lead you into making big mistakes which is what we are trying to get our opponent to do.


also as the river is multiway and the biggest blank in the world and on the turn we woke up and claimed we were slow playing. I cannot see any other bet size than a shove.

eh also as pot on flop is 1900 c/jam ftw maybe?!


edit 37, would you say that you are going to have a nut hand here 75+% of the time? because betting 1625 into 6625 gives our opponent v good odds.

[MANTIS01]

ok dude so you don't want to 4-bet the 9-9 bvb because it could cost 85bb's and here we are putting 65bb's into a multiway with 9 high

Think about If you flopped a proper made hand early in a tournament and then when you arrive at the turn there's equivalent to 50% of your starting stack in the middle with 2 live oppos and an obvious f/d and s/d on board. Would you bet 1/3 of the pot? By your own admission you blocker bet the turn to get a cheap river. But you wouldn't be looking for no blocker bet cheap river if you were in the box seat in this hand. That's the problem here. Your actions do not relate to a flopped hand and the turn and river are blanks. That said you read mp as weak and button as a draw so pushing rather than v-betting the river seems a better option based on your reads rather than your shitty story of a hand.

[EvilPie]

ok dude so you don't want to 4-bet the 9-9 bvb because it could cost 85bb's and here we are putting 65bb's into a multiway with 9 high

I have absolutely no recollection of what you are talking about 

Think about If you flopped a proper made hand early in a tournament and then when you arrive at the turn there's equivalent to 50% of your starting stack in the middle with 2 live oppos and an obvious f/d and s/d on board. Would you bet 1/3 of the pot? By your own admission you blocker bet the turn to get a cheap river. But you wouldn't be looking for no blocker bet cheap river if you were in the box seat in this hand. That's the problem here. Your actions do not relate to a flopped hand and the turn and river are blanks. That said you read mp as weak and button as a draw so pushing rather than v-betting the river seems a better option based on your reads rather than your shitty story of a hand.

Yeah while button was considering the call he was saying he thought I had 56hh and had bet the FD + up and down so he read me pretty well.

I think it's pretty obvious what I've got having thought it through myself but I wanted to check with a few others so that I can try to play the same way with a made hand against similar opposition. That's the next level that I'm currently trying to get my game to but it's very difficult to get the bet sizing right.

I spoke to the button after and he said that if I shoved the river he would've snap called because it would've looked even more like a bluff so I hope I got that bit right. Maybe I should make it a bit more, possibly 2.4k keeping 1.4k back. I don't know about this one.

I also elected to bet small on the river because I'd bet small on the turn. Changing my line all of a sudden from small bet to all in seems a bit suspect to me.

I definitely need to work on my bet sizing in multiway pots. In this pot I was betting more based on how much my oppos had already commited and would want to commit now rather than purely what was in the pot. Is this plain stupid or is there some merit in multiways?

[titaniumbean]

4bet bvb is the julian thread where the guy doesn't look iirc.

I wouldn't believe a word the button says about snap calling an all in lol.

If you had a hand on the turn you would surely bet bigger to protect in a multi way pot with such a draw heavy board?

[MANTIS01]

Button is a joker. It's amazing how big someone's balls get when they've just seen your hand. If people at this table are snapping their whole stacks at 25/50 with A high maybe it's best to just wait for a hand in this game. Betting bigger on the turn more closely represents a hand and sets up a perfect jam on the river and there's not a thing A-high button boy could do about that. As played jamming or folding seem better than v-betting no hand and hoping a guy who snaps air gets the story. However, I still think button's call is shit as it is.

[titaniumbean]

If i'm the button I cawl a small bet like Matt did but not a shove and i'm a huge cawling station donk.

[EvilPie]

Yeah there's a good chance button was lying but we do have some history against each other with bluffs and hero calls. This is why I tried to make it look like a value bet as this particular oppo loves to make hero calls. The bet size was difficult really. I think like Mantis said if I bet a bit more on the turn say 1200 I can get the bluff through with a jam as it looks more believable.

I appreciate your feedback here guys. Like I said the main thing I'm looking to gain from this hand is to actually be able to make this same play to disguise a made hand against a known hero caller. From what you've both said if I've got 2 pair here or a set I can bet small then represent the bluff on the river? I'm not always looking to protect against draws. I find that that loses a lot of value against certain players.

Do you agree that button's hand is pretty much face up once he's called a bet from both myself and the MP? The NFD is his most likely holding as he isn't scared of either of the other 2 players in the pot.

[booder]

you out already Matt?

[NoflopsHomer]

Total spew the whole way.

[boldie]

Call flop...then bet turn Yuck! I don't care what hand you have, it's always nasty...but especially into two people.

1625 into a 5k pot when you only have 2.2k more back doesn't look like a value bet..it looks weak.

just a nastely played hand, I think.

[EvilPie]

Total spew the whole way.

That's actually incredibly helpful by your usual standards.

[titaniumbean]

Yeah there's a good chance button was lying but we do have some history against each other with bluffs and hero calls. This is why I tried to make it look like a value bet as this particular oppo loves to make hero calls. The bet size was difficult really. I think like Mantis said if I bet a bit more on the turn say 1200 I can get the bluff through with a jam as it looks more believable.

I appreciate your feedback here guys. Like I said the main thing I'm looking to gain from this hand is to actually be able to make this same play to disguise a made hand against a known hero caller. From what you've both said if I've got 2 pair here or a set I can bet small then represent the bluff on the river? I'm not always looking to protect against draws. I find that that loses a lot of value against certain players.

Do you agree that button's hand is pretty much face up once he's called a bet from both myself and the MP? The NFD is his most likely holding as he isn't scared of either of the other 2 players in the pot.

You don't necessarily always want to just bet draw heavy flops because you're scared of the flush draw, you want to bet with specific reasons against the different parts of your opponents range. The problem with the flush draw coming is that not only does it sometimes hit their range it can also kill your action against other parts of his range.  You want to tailor your bet sizing relative to both the pot and what you want to achieve. If someone just calls too much and likes to make hero calls etc then stop bluffing him on the river, just semi bluff him through the streets and value bet him to death whenever you have a semblance of a hand.