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Author Topic: How often are we supposed to fold top set on the river?  (Read 4386 times)
Pyso
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« on: October 08, 2009, 04:36:41 PM »

A hand at DTD, £0.50/£1 cash game, I have £230 in front of me. The table is eight handed, the fish are all at one end of the table and they have been getting lucky.

I am in early position with 

I raise to £8 and get two callers. Pot is now £25. I have position post flop amazingly.

Flop is three clubs      

Checked to me, I briefly consider checking it back but then remind myself that this always ends in tears, so I bet £15. The only caller is a young oriental kid who is the living definition of a calling station. He could have anything. He and his mates are out to have fun so he really could have any two cards. He has around £150 when we started the hand.

Everyone else folds.

The turn is 

Happy days. He checks to me again. He has something. I am putting more money into the pot. The flush draw is there and some weird combos might make a straight. I bet £35, maybe not quite enough but if he calls £35 he will call a pot sized £55.

He calls. The pot is now £125.

The river is   

He checks, I bet as big as I think he can call with a weak Queen, King or weak two pair, which is £50.

He instantly topples his chips all over the line. I am not going to be stacked if I call but it’s about £80.

It’s £80 to call and there’s £305 in the middle. Minus the rake it’s 3.75 to 1 to call.

He either has a big queen, maybe a king, a set of threes, Q,10, KQ, a backdoor flush or a straight. He is not bluffing.

Any Jack makes a straight with this river but I can’t put him on that as easily - what hand that includes a Jack would he call me with on the flop? Maybe pocket jacks but they would surely have raised pre-flop? A suited jack (clubs) will find a call and then another one obviously once the King on the turn gives him an up and down straight draw.

So it’s not looking great. I don’t think he has a flush or if he has he’s an even bigger fish than I thought. A set is consistent with the way he has played the hand. So is two pair, especially if he puts me on AK, as everyone always does.

I make the crying call and he then f***ing slow rolls me, taking an age to turn over his cards, long after I have patiently displayed my set, even though I didn’t have to.

He tables     

Someone else has a go at him for slow rolling but I can see that he’s just an idiot who genuinely doesn’t know what slow rolling actually is, so I don’t say anything. Actually that’s a lie - I say out loud to the player who is complaining about it, “..look if he’s stupid enough to call with that shit pre-flop in the blinds, and then a gut-shot on the flop, then he really won’t know about poker etiquette.”

Yes, meow. Anyway, in what situation can you pass top set on the river when you have been check raised? Two friends at the table disagreed about whether I should have called - one said my opponent was so confident that he had to have the nuts and the other said that as the way the hand played he would look just as confident with two pair or a set of threes.

Is anyone passing here with those odds even though his body language was very strong and to be honest how often is a check raise on the river a bluff?

..oh, and if he turns over  ,   have I made a bad call - seeing as this is the only hand out of about four or five that he can have that can beat me?

I often get criticised for not betting the river in position but recent check-raises from my opponents holding the nuts have reminded me why I often don't bet if the board is too scary.

Whatever, I am sick of giving away money on the river. I need a break.
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Ironside
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 04:40:28 PM »

he starts the hand with 150 and after the turn he put 58 in pot

you then bet 50 so his raise is 42 you have to call

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titaniumbean
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 04:42:03 PM »

If he'll call 55 bet 55 not 35.

Also why is there even a consideration for not betting the flop against a calling station?
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Blatch
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2009, 04:44:52 PM »

If he'll call 55 bet 55 not 35.

Also why is there even a consideration for not betting the flop against a calling station?

My first thought when reading the post too
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2009, 04:45:21 PM »

bet flop bigger, bet way bigger on turn, as played trivial fold

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Pyso
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 04:46:40 PM »

he starts the hand with 150 and after the turn he put 58 in pot

you then bet 50 so his raise is 42 you have to call



Good point - he must have started the hand with more. It was deffo around £80 to call.
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kinboshi
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2009, 04:48:54 PM »

Bet £55 on the turn (or more if you think he'll call - in fact probably shove the lot in).

On the river, just check behind him.  He's only going to call if he has you beat.
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Pyso
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »

bet flop bigger, bet way bigger on turn, as played trivial fold



Sigh. I know, and illustrative of why I need a break. I was so bored, card dead and running bad that when I finally get a hand I under play it in an attempt to actually win a pot  - with the result that I end up making a crap call on the river(again) when I know I am beat. Time for a rest.
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outragous76
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 04:53:05 PM »

Why on earth did you bet that river card?

Trivial fold when he jams
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gatso
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 04:54:46 PM »

yuck, hate the river play

you bet small on the flop, small on the turn then when every draw gets there on the river you decide to see how much you can get in the middle
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Pyso
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 04:55:20 PM »

Why on earth did you bet that river card?

Trivial fold when he jams

I know, I'm already kicking my own arse.

Is it an easier fold if he just pushes all-in immediately?
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Pyso
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 04:57:11 PM »

My friend says he did just that and that I wasn't check raised.

We are agreeing to disagree but now the next morning I can't say for sure that he is wrong. So, if he did lead out, is it an easier fold?
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kinboshi
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 04:59:59 PM »

My friend says he did just that and that I wasn't check raised.

We are agreeing to disagree but now the next morning I can't say for sure that he is wrong. So, if he did lead out, is it an easier fold?

If he leads out for £80 and there's about £125 in the pot already, then it's horrible.  You're probably behind, but you've let him get there - but with that board it has to be a fold for me.

In this hand, my main focus would be pot control.  You have the second best starting hand, and it's unlikely to improve (although it did in this case) - so you want to get as much money into the pot as soon as you can.  I bet the flop bigger and shove it all in on the turn.  That means you don't have a lose-lose decision on the river.
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Pyso
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 05:00:34 PM »

Shit, he did lead out... this is why I leaned more towards a call.

I have confused this hand with another. He definitely did lead out on the river.

Which is interesting, because you are all correct to say calling a check raise is bad (and I've done it before so I'll kick my arse for that as well too) but with this new dynamic is it as bad a call? (It's still bad)

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Ironside
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 05:01:31 PM »

My friend says he did just that and that I wasn't check raised.

We are agreeing to disagree but now the next morning I can't say for sure that he is wrong. So, if he did lead out, is it an easier fold?

if he shoved that would make the £150 and the 92 on river connect

he shoves you fold easy the board is dripping you beat a bluff or a 2 pair hand thats is all
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