Which is correct?

[tikay]

Unless it's the daily fail or the scum.

FYP.

Please, Dan, on a thread about grammatical pedantry, even though we have a healthy & mutual lack of respect for those two odious organs, we should write their title correctly.

fyfyp

I think Claire got their titles spot on.  Capital letters are for proper nouns; and there's nothing proper about those two awful publications.

techically your second use of the word "proper" should have been as follows:

and there's nothing "Proper" about those two awful publications.

Agreed. Deduct two house points from my score.

[tikay]

Dan, the word proper should definitely be capitalised when in " " for emphasis, and where you are referring to proper Nouns

RED, commas you put in are in my opinion example of superflousity in the use of commas.


or

RED, commas you put in are, in my opinion, example of superflousity in the use of commas. (if you disagree with me)

See I wouldn't have used the word "Commas twice in the same sentence. or omitted the word "an" before "Example"

I would also have spelled "superfluity" correctly.

I would have said:  RED. The commas you put in are, in my opinion, an example of the superfluity their use.

I don't know where to begin on that purler, Tom! The pedants will have a field day on that one. Be afraid.

[gatso]

I'm with the clawcamel on this one. both options look very wrong

[Ironside]

someone ask miss coren

[Moskvich]

what's the answer then MW?

3 magazine editors said the comma should be inside (and generally google does also), and the 2 IT people (me and my boss) said it should be outside.

So that didn't look promising - but we have greater resources than that to draw on, we asked someone studying for an English degree at Kings College, London what she thought. Her first instinct was that it should be outside; but she checked her textbook (written by one of her professors) - and that agreed, the comma should be outside.

I think it was pretty much as was suggested, there is a difference between the American and English convention, but because American is so pervasive that's the rule that people will find if they look it up online.

 - and more broadly, what Tikay said is why the American's are wrong (unless their is some odd reason why the comma actually was part of what was originally said - but if that was the case then it should have '...' after it, so it'd still have been wrong)

This thread makes me want to have a little scream and maybe a cry...

The comma in the example should be within the quotation marks. Why someone studying English (or in fact any other subject) at university wouldn't know this, and why they have a textbook that even mentions it, is beyond me... Surely everyone does this at school at about the age of 12? And if they don't, surely they learn it by reading books or newspapers or magazines, or anything? (The books could be English or American - it doesn't make a difference.)

However, there is a distinction to be made - and this could be where the confusion comes from - between these two examples:

"Don't waste another minute," says Bannatyne. Comma within the quotation marks.

Don't waste "another minute", says Bannatyne. Comma outside.

Second example isn't great, as it doesn't really work as a headline, but will do for ease of comparison. A better example would be something like:

James Caan a "beard-stroking baby-buyer", says Bannatyne.

[Jon MW]

what's the answer then MW?

3 magazine editors said the comma should be inside (and generally google does also), and the 2 IT people (me and my boss) said it should be outside.

So that didn't look promising - but we have greater resources than that to draw on, we asked someone studying for an English degree at Kings College, London what she thought. Her first instinct was that it should be outside; but she checked her textbook (written by one of her professors) - and that agreed, the comma should be outside.

I think it was pretty much as was suggested, there is a difference between the American and English convention, but because American is so pervasive that's the rule that people will find if they look it up online.

 - and more broadly, what Tikay said is why the American's are wrong (unless their is some odd reason why the comma actually was part of what was originally said - but if that was the case then it should have '...' after it, so it'd still have been wrong)

This thread makes me want to have a little scream and maybe a cry...

The comma in the example should be within the quotation marks. Why someone studying English (or in fact any other subject) at university wouldn't know this, and why they have a textbook that even mentions it, is beyond me... Surely everyone does this at school at about the age of 12? And if they don't, surely they learn it by reading books or newspapers or magazines, or anything? (The books could be English or American - it doesn't make a difference.)

However, there is a distinction to be made - and this could be where the confusion comes from - between these two examples:

"Don't waste another minute," says Bannatyne. Comma within the quotation marks.

Don't waste "another minute", says Bannatyne. Comma outside.

It was the first one, but I think you might have to consider your knowledge base. Effectively what we got was a professor of English at a top university stating that it should be outside the quotation marks.

Or do you think you're more qualified to judge the issue?

[Moskvich]

what's the answer then MW?

3 magazine editors said the comma should be inside (and generally google does also), and the 2 IT people (me and my boss) said it should be outside.

So that didn't look promising - but we have greater resources than that to draw on, we asked someone studying for an English degree at Kings College, London what she thought. Her first instinct was that it should be outside; but she checked her textbook (written by one of her professors) - and that agreed, the comma should be outside.

I think it was pretty much as was suggested, there is a difference between the American and English convention, but because American is so pervasive that's the rule that people will find if they look it up online.

 - and more broadly, what Tikay said is why the American's are wrong (unless their is some odd reason why the comma actually was part of what was originally said - but if that was the case then it should have '...' after it, so it'd still have been wrong)

This thread makes me want to have a little scream and maybe a cry...

The comma in the example should be within the quotation marks. Why someone studying English (or in fact any other subject) at university wouldn't know this, and why they have a textbook that even mentions it, is beyond me... Surely everyone does this at school at about the age of 12? And if they don't, surely they learn it by reading books or newspapers or magazines, or anything? (The books could be English or American - it doesn't make a difference.)

However, there is a distinction to be made - and this could be where the confusion comes from - between these two examples:

"Don't waste another minute," says Bannatyne. Comma within the quotation marks.

Don't waste "another minute", says Bannatyne. Comma outside.

It was the first one, but I think you might have to consider your knowledge base. Effectively what we got was a professor of English at a top university stating that it should be outside the quotation marks.

Or do you think you're more qualified to judge the issue?

Sorry, what was the first what?

To be honest, I think I'm equally qualified, because unless I'm missing something and therefore making myself look very stupid here I'm sure I'm right. (Also, I suspect your knowledge base might be slightly overqualified for this question... Professors of English don't get to be professors of English because they're better at basic punctuation than everyone else. I imagine the professor's knowledge of medieval literature or whatever is a million times what mine is. But I don't imagine he or she knows much more than me about where to put a comma.)

Anyway, I'm also sure that the professor wouldn't get this wrong. So I guess there are therefore two possibilities here: first, that the prof is saying something very clever (or "clever") about how technically the comma should be outside, but everyone started putting it inside a couple of hundred years ago or something, so convention now "incorrectly" says that's where it should be; and second, that there's a misunderstanding as a result of the difference between the two example I gave in the previous post. Cos what I was saying was that it could in different circumstances be inside or outside, depending on what you're quoting, but in your original example it should be inside.

[boldie]

Obv. it should be outside.

I know this because I am a foreigner and am therefore one of the few members on this forum that was actually taught proper English when I received my education.

Though I could just prefer it because it looks MUCH better.

[Jon MW]

to be honest I think it's fairly clear cut and therefore not prone to misinterpretation, I'm perfectly capable of changing my mind if someone provides me with evidence to the contrary but so far I have the majority of people thinking the comma should be outside the quotes, an expert witness suggesting it should and Tikays 'common sense' explanation as to why it should.

The strongest argument you've provided is that it just should and others might have misunderstood.

and -

...

 if they don't, surely they learn it by reading books or newspapers or magazines, or anything? (The books could be English or American - it doesn't make a difference.)

...

Do you really think there are absolutely no differences between American English and English?

[Moskvich]

to be honest I think it's fairly clear cut and therefore not prone to misinterpretation, I'm perfectly capable of changing my mind if someone provides me with evidence to the contrary but so far I have the majority of people thinking the comma should be outside the quotes, an expert witness suggesting it should and Tikays 'common sense' explanation as to why it should.

The strongest argument you've provided is that it just should and others might have misunderstood.

and -

...

 if they don't, surely they learn it by reading books or newspapers or magazines, or anything? (The books could be English or American - it doesn't make a difference.)

...

Do you really think there are absolutely no differences between American English and English?

No, of course I don't think that. I just don't think there's a difference here.

Claire's suggestion earlier in the thread of just picking up a book and having a look how it's done is a good one.

Again, though, my suspicion is that there's some misunderstanding here. In the increasing apt example you gave - "Don't waste another minute," says Bannatyne - the quotation is a complete sentence, and the comma therefore goes inside. In other circumstances, where the quotation isn't in itself a sentence, the comma goes outside. eg, James Caan a "beard-stroking baby-buyer", says Bannatyne. I wonder if you've tried to check where the comma goes in the first by looking up an example of the second. I also wonder where the second example could be where British and US English usage differs..?

[Moskvich]

From the Economist style guide. Ignore the fact that the point here is about the inverted commas, rather than the commas:

Use single ones only for quotations within quotations. Thus: “When I say ‘immediately’, I mean some time before April,” said the spokesman.

http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805701

[rex008]

Except "Don't waste another minute" could easily be the start of a sentence, not a complete one, so I'm not sure your argument is watertight.

Don't waste another minute before replying to this thread, will you.

[RED-DOG]

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