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Author Topic: "Friendly" play in tournament, what is the correct ruling here?  (Read 4071 times)
sig75
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« on: June 11, 2005, 12:36:53 AM »

During today's tournament on the Blue Club, I was faced with the following situation:

It isin the freezeout period, the blinds are 150/300. The guy in BB is short, he has 1550 chips total. Everyone folds til SB, who raises to make it 1250 total. BB goes all in, and SB then has to call 300 more from his stack on around 19000.

SB and BB are buddies, they arrivedto the club together, and when we drew seats they happened to get places next to each other.

What happens next is that SB folds, announcing "I was on a bluff". The others at the table cries out "Chipdumping!!!" and calls me, as I am tournament director. He obviously had the correct odds to call with any two cards, and I made a ruling. The cards were shuffeled together, so the hand couldn't have been played out.

Before I announce what I ruled, I am interested in hearing what the forum members think would be correct?
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sig75
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2005, 12:41:50 AM »

Shoot Tikay, I put this in the wrong category of the forum. Can you move it?
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snoopy1239
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2005, 12:44:37 AM »

I think this is one of the greyest areas in local casinos and one of the most difficult rulings to make.

Some would say that it is blatant collusion and should be punished as such.

However, can you ever prove it. What if the guy says he didn't realise the player was all-in, that it was only 300 to call, and so on. An excuse could always be made. He may even wrongly confess to being an amateur, many of whom often pass when they have blatant pot odds.

In the end, it's up to the cardroom manager to make a judgement call.
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tikay
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2005, 12:49:59 AM »

Disqualify the guy who passed for 250. Hang him too, if I had my way. It's cheating. Make sure everyone knows he's been caught cheating. And remove the chips in the pot from the table so that the cheats partner does not benefit.

I saw this done so blatantly once that I called the TD, and told the whole table that we had a cheat amongst us. To this day, I still address him as "the cheat". But we don't chat much.....When ever we share a table, I announce to everyone that there is a cheat on the table. He says "I am getting a little tired of this" & I say tough, stop cheating then. He forgot to send me a christmas card though, which upset me greatly.

I am afraid lot of this happens in the low buy-in games. And it will continue unless we make a stand. Hang 'em. Or deport them to France, or Norway.

Next case.

By the way Sig, have a look at the Blue Club Festival thread pleae, I need an answer unless you & me are to end up in the same bed.

And yes, it's in the wrong section. I have tried moving stuff across, but I lost a whole thread somehow. Probably down the back of the computer. A summons of help to Ironside is imminent.....
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sig75
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2005, 01:43:11 AM »

Both of the players were first-timers in the club, so I guess that influenced me a bit when I made a relatively mild ruling.I gave the "chipdumper" a strong warning and ruled him to be sit-out for 30 minutes. As the cards were shuffeled together, I couldn't do what I had prefferred, to rule him to call and flip the cards on the board. The chips went to BB. With him sitting out for 30 minutes, he lost two rounds of blinds and was maybe not punished enough. The short guy (in BB) was knocked out three or four hands later, but the "dumper"went on to finish 2nd, where he outdrew my QQ with his J10o. Rats. But I finsihed 3rd and got 4,5k...
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Ironside
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2005, 01:52:59 AM »

wait a minute

you were playing in a tourny you were making rulings on?
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sig75
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2005, 02:22:33 AM »

Yes. As this is a small, private club we allow ourselves to play. But should I be involved in any rulings, I appoint two or three respected players from another table to make the decision.
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jonthomson
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2005, 09:10:08 PM »

It's funny how you read something, and then you notice similar things happening in your own game... chip leader with half the chips in play minraises preflop, and a shortstack calls, flop comes and the bigstack bets 800, shortstack raises 400 more all in (blinds are 100/200 at this stage) and the bigstack doesn't put in another 400 (out of 8000+)! Needless to say I bubble thanks to the alleged dumpee... and this is only a $3 sit and go!

You notice that, and then later (in the same SNG) you see an unraised pot between the big blind and button, big blind first to act after the flop not checking but folding... and the button conveniently showing aces... how it went from a 10K, 4K (me) and three on less than 2K each to four people with roughly even stacks I have no idea.
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tikay
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2005, 09:18:24 PM »


That's horrendous. Write to support, they can check the log. If they don't ban the culprits, change sites.
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jbsc7769
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2005, 07:18:25 PM »

To echo Tikay, write to the support of the site it was on, they should deal with it. It is worth saying though that sometimes (and i know it wasnt much more to see the cards), players do make that play perhaps with pocket twos or something (or even a complete bluff), the fact that he was reraised is a pretty clear indication that he was behind. If he KNEW at that point that he was behind then there was no point in putting in more chips. I havent done the math here so forgive me but, still, sometimes it MAY be the correct play.
Either way, as Tikay said, support will know for sure.
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jonthomson
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2005, 07:57:32 PM »

Either way, as Tikay said, support will know for sure.

Yes. They say they "can see no evidence of collusion whatsoever".

Just a very fishy play then  Huh?
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Foxy
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2005, 08:48:07 PM »

I remember at Walsall a 200 comp and Tikay folded for 25 chips on the river he then had a rebuy it was a 3k plus pot and the other player was from nottingham, do you remeber this Tikay and if so could you please explain to the nation what went on. Make it good Tony please Grin
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jbsc7769
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2005, 10:00:24 PM »

Hi Jon
Maybe not even a "fishy play". If the site said that, my guess it is a bluff gone wrong. From what you said It looks like there was $2800 in the pot to be won, with $400 to call. Not bad odds but if he really knew in his heart of hearts he was behind, and little chance of catching up, there is no point in paying the extra.
As he was chip leader, sounds like he was trying to push people around, made a play for the Pot when he missed.
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Junior Senior
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2005, 12:22:54 AM »

Tikay - surely foxy must be mistaking you for an oldish guy from Notts! - surely this is a fib foxy?
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Foxy
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2005, 12:45:51 AM »

FIB, Junior how dare you. I was drinking at the time so I cant be 100% certain. But when Tikay passed for 25 the chip I must admit it was funny the whole table was larthing the dealer even took it that Tikay was going to call and grabbed the chip off Tikay but he said sorry its a bluff thats gone wrong and im keeping my 25 chip to put with my rebuy chips Cheesy   I think Tikay is thinking very hard before he posts back, Im waiting  Grin
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