The Next Pope

[Woodsey]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

[ManuelsMum]

...

Almost everything that science has explained has previously been attributed to a god,


.... It is not proof yet but once science explains the origin of the Universe then that's pretty does it. The only way you could still believe in a god is to ignore the evidence.
...

Almost everything attributed to gods can now be explained by science - but not all of it can be proved

It would be hard to quantify but I expect the majority of the sum total of scientific knowledge is evidence to support the scientific argument rather than literal proof.

There are some good theories to show how matter could spontaneously come into existence from nothing - a pre-requisite for doing away with god creating the universe - but even if you can recreate this in a lab for example, that would only be proof that it could have happened that way - not that it did.

Well said, but we're talking really about space/time coming from nothing, matter from nothing is fairly easy

[kinboshi]

...

Almost everything that science has explained has previously been attributed to a god,


.... It is not proof yet but once science explains the origin of the Universe then that's pretty does it. The only way you could still believe in a god is to ignore the evidence.
...

Almost everything attributed to gods can now be explained by science - but not all of it can be proved

It would be hard to quantify but I expect the majority of the sum total of scientific knowledge is evidence to support the scientific argument rather than literal proof.

There are some good theories to show how matter could spontaneously come into existence from nothing - a pre-requisite for doing away with god creating the universe - but even if you can recreate this in a lab for example, that would only be proof that it could have happened that way - not that it did.

As Jon says, we can examine evidence to support hypotheses and models. Proof is the reserve of mathematics.

[kinboshi]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

[Rod]

...

Almost everything that science has explained has previously been attributed to a god,


.... It is not proof yet but once science explains the origin of the Universe then that's pretty does it. The only way you could still believe in a god is to ignore the evidence.
...

Almost everything attributed to gods can now be explained by science - but not all of it can be proved

It would be hard to quantify but I expect the majority of the sum total of scientific knowledge is evidence to support the scientific argument rather than literal proof.

There are some good theories to show how matter could spontaneously come into existence from nothing - a pre-requisite for doing away with god creating the universe - but even if you can recreate this in a lab for example, that would only be proof that it could have happened that way - not that it did.

You got a link to any of these by any chance? No problem if not, just would like to read, I got some links from google but not sure which are reliable obviously.

Oh by the way, completely off topic - ONE MONTH.

[Jon MW]

...

Almost everything that science has explained has previously been attributed to a god,


.... It is not proof yet but once science explains the origin of the Universe then that's pretty does it. The only way you could still believe in a god is to ignore the evidence.
...

Almost everything attributed to gods can now be explained by science - but not all of it can be proved

It would be hard to quantify but I expect the majority of the sum total of scientific knowledge is evidence to support the scientific argument rather than literal proof.

There are some good theories to show how matter could spontaneously come into existence from nothing - a pre-requisite for doing away with god creating the universe - but even if you can recreate this in a lab for example, that would only be proof that it could have happened that way - not that it did.

As Jon says, we can examine evidence to support hypotheses and models. Proof is the reserve of mathematics.

If there is a God, he's a great mathematician.  ~Paul Dirac

[ManuelsMum]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

Cos the universe doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is capable of creating itself and it's not unreasonable to ask where it came from so maybe there's something else that whooshed it that doesn't in itself need to be whooshed. You're suggesting that it self-whooshed, which sounds pretty unlikely. Things don't self-whoosh.

[Jon MW]

...

Almost everything that science has explained has previously been attributed to a god,


.... It is not proof yet but once science explains the origin of the Universe then that's pretty does it. The only way you could still believe in a god is to ignore the evidence.
...

Almost everything attributed to gods can now be explained by science - but not all of it can be proved

It would be hard to quantify but I expect the majority of the sum total of scientific knowledge is evidence to support the scientific argument rather than literal proof.

There are some good theories to show how matter could spontaneously come into existence from nothing - a pre-requisite for doing away with god creating the universe - but even if you can recreate this in a lab for example, that would only be proof that it could have happened that way - not that it did.

You got a link to any of these by any chance?...

It's stuff I read on actual paper rather than on a screen - I apologise for such aberrant behaviour obviously

[kinboshi]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

Cos the universe doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is capable of creating itself and it's not unreasonable to ask where it came from so maybe there's something else that whooshed it that doesn't in itself need to be whooshed. You're suggesting that it self-whooshed, which sounds pretty unlikely. Things don't self-whoosh.

The creator self-whooshed?

[Rod]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

Cos the universe doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is capable of creating itself and it's not unreasonable to ask where it came from so maybe there's something else that whooshed it that doesn't in itself need to be whooshed. You're suggesting that it self-whooshed, which sounds pretty unlikely. Things don't self-whoosh.

The creator self-whooshed?

I have a watch here, I wonder if it made itself.

(Joke)  :-)

[ManuelsMum]

ManuelsMum, just because an answer isn't known the solution that "goddidit" doesn't provide a sensible answer.

It merely moves the goalposts. If there's complexity in the universe that cannot yet be explained, to say it must be down to a designer doesn't solve anything. Where would this god come from - with all their inherent complexity?

Fair point, I'm just not that keen on 'goddidit' because I'm not all that keen on 'god', laden as the term is with so much baggage like oversight, punishment, power etc.

And I'm not just trying to explain the complexity either, I'm not that keen on a 'god of the gaps'. I'm trying to posit a model which is different from that implicitly suggested by most atheists.

I remember the bit in the convo between Copplestone and Russell where Russell says that 'I believe that the Universe is 'just there'. It's that model I'm trying to question, rather than defending a Yahweh type beardy guy.

[ManuelsMum]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

Cos the universe doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is capable of creating itself and it's not unreasonable to ask where it came from so maybe there's something else that whooshed it that doesn't in itself need to be whooshed. You're suggesting that it self-whooshed, which sounds pretty unlikely. Things don't self-whoosh.

The creator self-whooshed?

He just is, no whooshing.

I'll labour til my dying day to prove the existence of this God I don't believe in, cos this other model, it's shit quite frankly.

[kinboshi]

Maybe antitheist (as proposed by Mr Hitchens) is a better term than atheist? It doesn't carry the same 'baggage'.

[kinboshi]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

Cos the universe doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is capable of creating itself and it's not unreasonable to ask where it came from so maybe there's something else that whooshed it that doesn't in itself need to be whooshed. You're suggesting that it self-whooshed, which sounds pretty unlikely. Things don't self-whoosh.

The creator self-whooshed?

I have a watch here, I wonder if it made itself.

(Joke)  :-)

[kinboshi]

Rod, wasn't asking for proof - just one piece of evidence, no matter how small.

Creation of the universe

That's a question, rather than evidence. If the universe needs a creator because of its complexity, etc., where does this creator come from? If he/it doesn't need to be created or a creator, why does the universe?

Cos the universe doesn't seem to demonstrate that it is capable of creating itself and it's not unreasonable to ask where it came from so maybe there's something else that whooshed it that doesn't in itself need to be whooshed. You're suggesting that it self-whooshed, which sounds pretty unlikely. Things don't self-whoosh.

The creator self-whooshed?

He just is, no whooshing.

I'll labour til my dying day to prove the existence of this God I don't believe in, cos this other model, it's shit quite frankly.

Argument through incredulity isn't an argument. As you know.