$2k scoop spot

[aaron1867]

I stand by what I said, it's either fold or raise again, definitely not call.

What your reason?

not saying you're right or wrong just necessary to proceed with the debate

You are in late position, the SB could just see this as a bluff, no? Flatting is just showing a sign of weakness, when the flop comes, does he put you on AJ?

Also, when you are flatting the bet, do you have any idea of where you are? A RR and you would surely get some information.

Throughout this hand Trigg has got no idea where he was.

[pleno1]

we always put somebody on a range and try to narrow that as the hand progresses.

We know that vs his value range we are in bad shape, however vs his bluffing range we are in very good shape, when we 4bet we isolate ourself vs his value range as he will mostly fold his bluffing range.

if we flat call we get to play a pot in position, remember, position + skill = profit and can win vs some of his value range (kk/qq) when we flop an Ace, AK/AQ when we flop Jx or when it is a low board and we can take the pot down and more importantly vs his bluffing range he can try to represent strong hands on boards that are favourable for our hand.

when we 4bet AJ like you suggest it may aswell be any two cards as you are trying to fold.

this is pretty basic stuff and think youre 4betting to find out where you are strategy is pretty 2009 and extremely exploitable.

May I ask what you're calling range to the 3bets is? It is probably going to look like 22-99 which means you have a really weak range in 3bet pots on almost any board and villains will be able to play very well vs you.

[pleno1]

aj vs his value range..



 
 Equity Win Tie 
MP2  29.62%  28.30%  1.32% AJo
MP3  70.38%  69.06%  1.32% 99+, AQs+, AQo+

[railtard1]

aaron levelling here right?

[cambridgealex]

aaron levelling here right?

no

[FUN4FRASER]

I stand by what I said, it's either fold or raise again, definitely not call.

What your reason?

not saying you're right or wrong just necessary to proceed with the debate

You are in late position, the SB could just see this as a bluff, no? Flatting is just showing a sign of weakness, when the flop comes, does he put you on AJ?

Also, when you are flatting the bet, do you have any idea of where you are? A RR and you would surely get some information.

Throughout this hand Trigg has got no idea where he was.

 

[aaron1867]

There is no point in looking at %. They are only useful if you know what the other player had and like I said already, Trigg had no idea what he had and that was because of flatting the bet.

[railtard1]

There is no point in looking at %. They are only useful if you know what the other player had and like I said already, Trigg had no idea what he had and that was because of flatting the bet.

haha man, pls keep this up, im watching trigg tilt at reading ur replies

[SuuPRlim]

You are in late position, the SB could just see this as a bluff, no? Flatting is just showing a sign of weakness, when the flop comes, does he put you on AJ?

I think showing weakness isn't too much of a worry, Trigg has shown he has enough of a hand to call with, which shows his hand isnt one of the "bluffs" he woudl be raising from the button, he isn't going to flat here with 96o for example, if he thinks we have a weaker hand than AJ then it could be seen as a good thing for us? We are in position, with a hand that our opponent will try to represent (he will bet on ACE high boards for eg) and nicely, a BETTER hand than he thinks we will have? This could defo be a positive for us (again not saying he should or shouldn't flat call here PF, just saying)

Also, when you are flatting the bet, do you have any idea of where you are? A RR and you would surely get some information.

The post I made before was covering this subject, a hand is like a jigsaw puzzle, as you start to put more pieces in you get a better idea of what it is. this is only the first stage of the hand, we have SOME (agreed, not very much) information, that information is that he has re-raised from the small blind vs out BTN raise. We know that he knows this will often be a steal, so we expect him to be raising as a bluff quite a lot, and we use this to build a (admitedly very wide at this point) range for him - most of his bluffs will be suited cards and stuff he doesn't think is strong enough to call from the SB with     and so on and OFC his very big hands. We can only guess what % of the time he is bluffing/raising with a good hand but Trigg's experience will give him a rough idea (maybe 1.5:1 in favor of good hands?)

Then we go to the flop/turn/river and we get more information and can maybe rule more hands out, if it comes   and he bets again, we can maybe rule AQ/AK out, if he cbets a   flop then bets again on an ACE river, maybe we think he likely DOESN'T have TT/QQ/KK. Basically we go through the hand collecting information - we DONT need to gather all the information in one go at the start of the hand because this makes us dig to deep and look to hard, and that will always leave our opponent a great opportunity to lie to us.

Throughout this hand Trigg has got no idea where he was.

I don't think this is true I think he was happy with where he was in the hand, but the river action from our villain is so very peculiar that it's now wonder he was a bit muddled on the end.

[pleno1]

There is no point in looking at %. They are only useful if you know what the other player had and like I said already, Trigg had no idea what he had and that was because of flatting the bet.

you never know an exact hand that the villain has, knowing your % i.e equity vs their range is THE most important thing at all times and how we go about making long term, profitable decisions.

[cambridgealex]

Please, without wanting to be rude, I was looking forward to (observing) a high level discussion about this hand which is very interesting and is certainly not clear cut one way or the other.

Aaron, this is a 2k buy-in online tournament, and the players concerned in this hand are at a very high level of standard. No offence, but you're completely out of your depth here and the thread has turned into people explaining to you some extremely basic concepts about no limit holdem pre-flop theories that you are completely dismissing which is a) rude and b) just totally stupid.

[aaron1867]

It probably would have been more of a better idea to flat with 69 than AJ.

[aaron1867]

Please, without wanting to be rude, I was looking forward to (observing) a high level discussion about this hand which is very interesting and is certainly not clear cut one way or the other.

Aaron, this is a 2k buy-in online tournament, and the players concerned in this hand are at a very high level of standard. No offence, but you're completely out of your depth here and the thread has turned into people explaining to you some extremely basic concepts about no limit holdem pre-flop theories that you are completely dismissing which is a) rude and b) just totally stupid.

Flatting with AJ in that position in a or $2k buyin is totally ridic.

[cambridgealex]

This is why sick mtters like Trigg and Bram don't post much on here. It's really tilting.

[railtard1]

Please, without wanting to be rude, I was looking forward to (observing) a high level discussion about this hand which is very interesting and is certainly not clear cut one way or the other.

Aaron, this is a 2k buy-in online tournament, and the players concerned in this hand are at a very high level of standard. No offence, but you're completely out of your depth here and the thread has turned into people explaining to you some extremely basic concepts about no limit holdem pre-flop theories that you are completely dismissing which is a) rude and b) just totally stupid.

Flatting with AJ in that position in a or $2k buyin is totally ridic.

haha brilliant.

the truth is, folding AJ pre in this spot would be totally ridic