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Author Topic: nl50. Turn spot in 3bet Pot  (Read 1719 times)
AJR14
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« on: December 14, 2012, 03:32:43 PM »

discussed with friends and split on bet/check back turn.

First post so Quick intro.

Im a low stakes grinder on sky, moved up pretty quickly and hit a wall at nl50 so looking to start posting some hands here to turn the little losses/breakeven sessions around. 

The hand. The opponent is an aggro fish reg who will bet heavy with a wide range of hands but doesn’t deal too well with aggression. Ive played quite a few hands v them where they tend to fold to cbets in 3bet pots a lot. Hence the 3bet pre

Although opponent is aggro their calling ranges post flop are usually fairly tight but can call wide at times. They have called 4bets with KQ then gone on to play top pair very passively post flop in the past so we assuming they will play hands they like passive when facing pre flop aggression. I don’t think they call 2 barrels with air. When they call the flop they have a lot of medium PP’s, ace highs, tens. They 4bet pre QQ+ and AK not sure about 1010/JJ or AJ+

They like to pot bet vbet rivers.

Questions - With the info that the opponent folds a lot post flop in 3bet pots but will bet heavy a lot when they have lead are we calling pre or 3betting?

As played when the opponent calls the flop and we hit the turn do we check back or bet? If we bet what sort of range is going to call? My thinking at the time was if check back we induce the worse hands we fold out by betting the turn to bluff the river a lot when oppo is fish who likes to bluff when they have the lead and save money when we crushed



Player   Action   Cards   Amount   Pot   Balance

1   Small blind      £0.25   £0.25   £49.25
2   Big blind      £0.50   £0.75   £50.25

Hero   Your hole cards           
   
3           Fold            
4           Fold            
Villain           Raise      £1.50   £2.25   £43.87
Hero (btn)   Raise      £5.00   £7.25   £45.00
1              Fold            
2           Fold            
Villain           Call      £3.50   £10.75   £40.37

Flop
•   three diamonds
•   
•   
           
Villain   Check            
Hero  Bet      £6.00   £16.75   £39.00
Villain   Call      £6.00   £22.75   £34.37

Turn
        •              

Villain   Check            
Hero   ?   

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Once a thing's been done, it's been done. So why all this nostalgia? I mean, for the 60s and 70s, you know, looking backwards for inspiration, copying the past. How's that rock 'n' roll? Do something of your own. Start something new. Live your life now.
- John Lennon
titaniumbean
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 03:50:44 PM »

if we're 3betting this wide preflop it's because we think they are raise calling too wide, folding too much down the streets, don't hand read that well etc etc, as such we should be finding it a really easy bet on the turn and most likely a bet fold on most rivers!  if you are thinking he's going to fold the turn loads then we should be 3betting him even more as a bluff.


this hand plays very well to peel IP so you need to have specific reasons to 3bet it instead. once you do we should be barrelling our air hands enough to be all super warm and fuzzy inside when we bet this turn having actually finally hit a pair. given stacks you don't even have to bet that much more than you did on the flop to have an easy river shove. you could also try jamming turn to rep draw hands and have him try and call off any medium pocket pair etc. obviously it being pokers it depends on how you think your opponent will react with different hands. do we get more value betting small on turn inducing another hero call and then having him tank call ai on blank rivers, or will he hero call wider to a big bet on a draw bringing turn overcard?
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 04:09:40 PM »

yh i agree with Andy (yuck)

I don't like the 3bet too much as we have a great hand to peel (suited, conneected, plays well multi-way if it goes, can make high pairs etc) but actually is a very bad hand to peel a 4bet with 100big blinds deep (obviously much better 300big blinds deep) as the majority of your opponents "legitimate" 4betting range does very well against QJ (even suited) and only 100big blinds deep in a 4bet pot it's going to be very easy for your villain to play for stacks leaving us the only way we can win is to show him a winning hand.

QJ offsuit would be a better hand to 3bet as it's a much much less desirable hand to call with and we still have two blockers to some premium hands (KQo always traditionally thought off as the "best light 3betting" hand for this reason) This isn't all to say that 3betting here with your QJs is a bad play chances are its fine but i think you need a better, and deeper reason than the one you gave - if for example he is playing extremely passively in 3bet pots OOP then you would do better picking the "Top of your folding range" in each spot and 3betting him with that, basically the very best hands you aren't calling or 3betting for value with K8o, A6o, J4s, K2s these type of hands and not "wasting equity" by risking having to fold QJs to a 4bet when it plays so well as a peel, if you 3bet A6 and get 4bet you can fold and think nothing of it.

As played I'd bet the turn defo he has AJ some% but most likely has a small pair and then depending what the river card as to whether id vbet again but i'd be extremely tempted to go for another small value-bet as most players of this type are quite stubborn in spots like this so unless you have a read otherwise id go for a river bet as well. I think you have to bet  the turn you have best hand so often and he can call plenty plenty worse.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 04:11:59 PM »

ima go back and edit my post to the opposite of what I said now. rofl
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LonOhRay
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 04:17:09 PM »

Looks like a HU hand?

Haven't seen a hh in that format before
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 04:18:09 PM »

Looks like a HU hand?

Haven't seen a hh in that format before
it's sky poker pictorial horribleness. he's done absolutely amazingly to make it even slightly readable.

it's a 6 max hand, we're BTN vs CO.
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pleno1
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 05:05:29 PM »

Flat both ore but if it's a CIA then 3bottle Qjs is really find
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 05:13:57 PM »

Flat both ore but if it's a CIA then 3bottle Qjs is really find


ENGLISH, DOES YOU HAS IT
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pleno1
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 05:17:56 PM »

Lol sorry
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
titaniumbean
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 05:23:14 PM »

I normally can translate. that one is just 12 steps too far.

edit since when does the CIA have banks of players grinding for them?
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AJR14
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 08:40:23 PM »

How do. Cheers for the comments.

Firstly, after looking at the hand again calling pre is far better and although it is my default play I decided to 3bet here for the reasons I said earlier.
 
When looking at the turn bet are we really going to be getting 3 streets, and even stacks, with a hand we beat here? Even if he does call the turn with medium pairs, is he really going to call a river value bet as well here? My line will look strong and even though they don’t come across as the best hand reader I’m sure they will spot that the 3bet/3barrel line is strong. Obv it’s hard for you to answer not knowing opponent and my lack of reads for post flop tendencies but that is because I only have one hand that may help here in this spot as they have either a) folded b) played passively with hands they like but not too much or c) I’ve folded before showdown.

If the villain was betting I would be calling here all day as they would be betting far worse a lot of the time but when they are calling, that’s my problem. The VERY bottom of his turn calling range here would be 55/99 IMO and I’m not sure they call with that part of their range as I have never seen them do that and that is where my problems lie. Is the best play to bet the turn without that information and assume that they could call down with range?
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Once a thing's been done, it's been done. So why all this nostalgia? I mean, for the 60s and 70s, you know, looking backwards for inspiration, copying the past. How's that rock 'n' roll? Do something of your own. Start something new. Live your life now.
- John Lennon
KasabianP
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2012, 09:48:41 PM »

if youre just going to get 1 street of value you have more chance to get it on the turn rather than on the river as bet check bet line is usually a hand
if he's a fish and calls the turn, he'll prob convince himself to call otr after investing so much, and you might have like A9o or something right
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KasabianP
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 09:52:24 PM »

and also you can bet the turn and then check back the river which means youve still got good value, rather than checking the turn and then poss checking back on the K river. b/folding vs passive fish is usually always a good line and imo is > than checking ott
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 01:52:28 AM »

the answer to can we get three streets here is, yes.


the method is to 3bet the shit out of them Cheesy which ofc would include 3betting this hand as it flops toppy pairys
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