How long has horse racing got left?

[gouty]

There is a big difference between laying punters to regular stakes and laying arbers.

[rfgqqabc]

There is a big difference between laying punters to regular stakes and laying arbers.

Arbers drawing dead for any decent amount.

The guy I worked for wasn't an arber (that's an aside in case you directed towards me)

[redarmi]

I don't get why this so called 'arbing' is spoken of as some sort of crime.  What does it matter to the books if you are able to lay it back elsewhere and take a guaranteed profit?  I'd appreciate the explanation, if one exists.

Just speaking with my bookmakers hat on for a second.....I actually dont mind arbers and I tend to use them when I want to get a position or get some buyback from a big bet I have taken etc but I do understand why a lot of people don't want or like them.  Generally speaking you simply get no value from them and it is a total one way street.  They will only bet when they can get a bet on the other side and they never give any action.  They are a bit like the nits of the sports betting world.  Of course the reason a lot of firms dont like them is because they are generally winners but that doesn't really bother us so long as the punters playing us dont take unfair shots and give us a bit of action on our main markets.

[atdc21]

When i helped someone 'put on' for a big punter we must of had 100 telephone accounts close within 18 months.
Sometimes a horse would lose and still get the ban, because the price had tumbled they still ban you, as they think a hit could well be the next bet.
The biggest bet we ever got on in one go was £1500 , often bets of £300-£500 would be refused, so anyone who thinks a person can walk into a high street bookmaker and get 10k is living in cloud cuckoo land. the ywould let you put 10k into the roulette machine tho.
Even if you went to a race meeting you would struggle to get 10k on in one go.

[gouty]

I don't get why this so called 'arbing' is spoken of as some sort of crime.  What does it matter to the books if you are able to lay it back elsewhere and take a guaranteed profit?  I'd appreciate the explanation, if one exists.

It's just a load of work for zero profit. No crime involved at all. I remember a couple of years ago I took on a guy over 3 months on football singles only. He staked over 200k in bets between £300 and £1200 and I "won" £28. It actually reduced my GP % by a right chunk for the year. To be fair he was hoping I would win to keep laying him but we gave it every chance.

It's like playing break even poker. The rake will kill you.

To go back to the thread title racings problem is that they signed up to being funded by the gambling industry and now, since betfair, we bookies are none too happy with the margins and therefore try to get punters to bet on anything that is not UK horse racing. Funding will drop and drop until there is an industry SP or it is made illegal to hedge into betfair from the track.

[rfgqqabc]

I don't get why this so called 'arbing' is spoken of as some sort of crime.  What does it matter to the books if you are able to lay it back elsewhere and take a guaranteed profit?  I'd appreciate the explanation, if one exists.

It's just a load of work for zero profit. No crime involved at all. I remember a couple of years ago I took on a guy over 3 months on football singles only. He staked over 200k in bets between £300 and £1200 and I "won" £28. It actually reduced my GP % by a right chunk for the year. To be fair he was hoping I would win to keep laying him but we gave it every chance.

It's like playing break even poker. The rake will kill you.

To go back to the thread title racings problem is that they signed up to being funded by the gambling industry and now, since betfair, we bookies are none too happy with the margins and therefore try to get punters to bet on anything that is not UK horse racing. Funding will drop and drop until there is an industry SP or it is made illegal to hedge into betfair from the track.

Could you not arb too? Free info

[gouty]

I don't get why this so called 'arbing' is spoken of as some sort of crime.  What does it matter to the books if you are able to lay it back elsewhere and take a guaranteed profit?  I'd appreciate the explanation, if one exists.

It's just a load of work for zero profit. No crime involved at all. I remember a couple of years ago I took on a guy over 3 months on football singles only. He staked over 200k in bets between £300 and £1200 and I "won" £28. It actually reduced my GP % by a right chunk for the year. To be fair he was hoping I would win to keep laying him but we gave it every chance.

It's like playing break even poker. The rake will kill you.

To go back to the thread title racings problem is that they signed up to being funded by the gambling industry and now, since betfair, we bookies are none too happy with the margins and therefore try to get punters to bet on anything that is not UK horse racing. Funding will drop and drop until there is an industry SP or it is made illegal to hedge into betfair from the track.

Could you not arb too? Free info

Not really as I would just end up having my trade accounts closed down. the arbs are not nailed on winners just work out as 100% book selections. They also take some finding so I do take my hat off to these fellas. the problem is getting on enough to make the back/lay worthwhile. In theory it should not matter if the selection wins or loses although most good arbers always want them to lose to enable them to get on again.

its a lot harder for arbers now as no one really lays racing post prices any more for good money and oddschecker etc. are updated by the minute.

[gouty]

Actually thinking about it I suppose I did used to arb. i would punt pricewise channel 4 horses on a Friday night knowing I would lay them shorter next day. got bored with that though!

[redarmi]

The best arbers these days are all technologically savvy and have automated 90% of the process.  If I type in a price wrong now on football I will have taken a string of bets on it before I have finished putting in the next match so literally 15-20 seconds later and the best/smartest arbers seem to have designed software which doesnt take advantage of wrong prices ie obvious errors as they know it can cost them accounts.  I think the days of manual arbers making a proper living are pretty much done because the computer guys are just so fast and will take very thin margins and still make a lot of money.  For sure we have guys that have made $30-40k in the last year from us alone.  Add in another 5-10 bookies they can do the same with and it is a lot of money these guys are making.  One guy of my acquaintace employs 15-20 people now.

[TheDazzler]

Story of degen gambler today in Ireland.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1220/1224328044371.html
He was able to get 40K euros on a Norwegian womens football match! No problem getting on, if you're a mug.

There is one part of the article that doesn't make sense though;
"The court heard O’Reilly had developed a chronic gambling problem and he had an account called “Tony Ten” with Paddy Power Bookmakers. When the account was examined it was found that over the period in question it had a turnover of €10 million, with €8.3 million in winnings and €1.7 million in losses."

That suggests to me he won 6.6m euros! But I think he just lost the entire 1.75m he stole. So he won 8.3m and lost 10m.

Anyway, the thing is, I find it highly irresponsible of the bookmaker taking all that money from a guy who is clearly a mug. There is NO WAY they would be taking 40k on a Norwegian womens football match from anybody with half a clue.

[rfgqqabc]

 One guy of my acquaintace employs 15-20 people now.

Must be the same guy, surely?!?!

[edgascoigne]

you are a million to be able to hand over 10k in any betting shop in england (and get a bet for it )

Strongly disagree.

Really?  The guys that put on for me struggle to get more than a couple of hundred on almost anything and move shops and areas everyday.

Apologies, my comment was rather brief and overly simplistic.

What I should have said is "I know (of) people who are happily accommodated £10k cash bets in shop if they want such a bet".

You and I both know such a situation is rather specific (history, event, selection etc.)... but my original point (sort of) stands

[redarmi]

 One guy of my acquaintace employs 15-20 people now.

Must be the same guy, surely?!?!

Pretty certain it isn't.  Guy I am talking about employs 15-20 but they are mainly tech guys/coders etc rather than people to get him on as such.  That said I know of 3-4 groups operating in London alone with those kind of numbers at their disposal.  It isn't as rare as you would think but I am not sure how effective the 'having people in shops' approach is these days.  When I was back in the UK last week I had a beer with the guy that  helps me out and he effectively said he is generally good for 3 or 4 bets in Hills and Corals shops because they have photos of him now after which he will be refused a bet completely.  This is a massive change from 3-4 years ago imo.